It's our move!

[spare_change]

As you know, I have recently run afoul of the politically correct. This weekend, I watched 350,000 people march in opposition to changing the immigration laws. It occurs to me that no one is speaking for the other side - the majority of American citizens.

Please -- send an email to your congressman. Tell him/her what you think. Here is a copy of the email I sent to mine. Copy it if you like (to copy, just highlight the words, and press CTRL-C). Look up your congressman's email address here :

http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

To: Congressman ___________

To be clear, I will not vote for any politician who opposes building the wall on the southern border or who votes in favor of any measure proposing forgiveness or amnesty for current illegal immigrants residing in this country.

Further, I will not contribute, or support, any political party that opposes effective immigration control, appropriate border management, or forgiveness for current illegal immigrants.

Thank you.

[Cotties]

Yeah I saw the march in Dallas today. I also saw the march from some church and his Mexican followers. [they called it a practise run]I find it hard to believe that the church feels they can hide illegals. Feed them yes but report them at the same time seems appropriate.
The wall does seem to be the only rational way to solve a huge problem.

[Norfolkdave]

Spare I will support you from England and I will write to your congress dept. You know how I feel about it over here. I wont go into detail my friend incase I upset readers but I support you 100%

[spare_change]

Yeah I saw the march in Dallas today. I also saw the march from some church and his Mexican followers. [they called it a practise run]I find it hard to believe that the church feels they can hide illegals. Feed them yes but report them at the same time seems appropriate.
The wall does seem to be the only rational way to solve a huge problem.

As a practicing Catholic, I am appalled that the Church thinks it is appropriate for them to get involved in secular politics. Jesus himself said, " Render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's". The church does have a place in providing assistance, support, and charity to the poor --- and they should do that. But, for them to try to control national policy is outside their province.

[sweetgapeach]

As a practicing Catholic, I am appalled that the Church thinks it is appropriate for them to get involved in secular politics. Jesus himself said, " Render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's". The church does have a place in providing assistance, support, and charity to the poor --- and they should do that. But, for them to try to control national policy is outside their province.


As a Catholic I agree !!

[spare_change]

As a Catholic I agree !!

Ahh, Peach -- now we are BOTH going to Hell !! At least, Cotties will be there.

[Norfolkdave]

Ahh, Peach -- now we are BOTH going to Hell !! At least, Cotties will be there.

Thats three oh well, in for a penny in for a pound as they say over here:wa:

[sweetgapeach]

Ahh, Peach -- now we are BOTH going to Hell !! At least, Cotties will be there.



I figure I wont notice the heat , be too busy meeting my Friends !!:D

[Barkiss]

I figure I wont notice the heat , be too busy meeting my Friends !!:D

Like I said...I ate meat all day on Friday...just so I could meet you there! ;)

BTW Spare...thanks for the reminder. I just wrote my congressman!

[Wet Beaver]

well with Di- FI and Boxer as our senators...it doesn't do much good to write them....my congressman voted for the house version....

[tasala]

I am hispanic and catholic. my grandfather crossed the border when he was 7. That was back in 1888 when border enforcement was essentially non-existant. This is not a simple issue. On the one hand, we are all immigrants unless 100% native-american. On the other hand, we do have borders and a process for legal immigration into the US. It seems to me that the proposed legislation is an attempt at addressing the people who are here illegally, allowing them the chance at legal immigration. I do not think it is fair to separate these people into classes based on length of time they have been in the US. I wish i had a better suggestion, but I also applaud the attempt at some type of reform. Not sure I have a better suggestion, but I am against simply forcing everyone back. That is simply in-humane. I know many hard-working individuals who have crossed illegally, started families here, raised US-born children on minimum wage salaries, and I can't imagine what it would do to them if they were forced to go back to Mexico.

This seems a bit more complicated to simply write a letter opposing those opposed to effective immigration control. What do you suggest Spare_change?

As for the catholic church - the church as provided immigration and refugee assistance for years. before chastising the march, ask yourself who lead the march? Was it one single priest? Diocese? Was it condoned by the local Bishop? I really wonder if the church took an official stance on this march or if this happended to be a local rallying point for the demonstrators. Regardless, the Church should stand for human dignity and it should support programs and legislation that negatively that. Are walls really the answer? I thought some wall came down a few years ago?

[Barkiss]

I am an Anglo-Saxon Catholic and feel it is quite more simple than you let on. Illegal has only one definition - against the law. Whose responsibility is it to pay the medical and educational needs for these "illegal" immigrants?

"On the one hand, we are all immigrants unless 100% native-american." At what point does this argument become futile? My great-great grandfather was born in the United States. My great grandmother married a full blooded Cherokee indian. I'm as about a big of a mutt as they come; however I am 100% American.

I am always proud of being Catholic. I am always proud of what the church stands for. I am for the most part proud of the policies and positions of the Catholic Church. However, these lands were established with a separation of Church and State...and this is a State issue.

September 11th changed a lot for this country, but the one area that is still leaving a void is at our borders. So yes sir...I say let's put up a wall. It can always be knocked down later too, but for now...let's close the door!

[Barkiss]

"That is simply in-humane. I know many hard-working individuals who have crossed illegally, started families here, raised US-born children on minimum wage salaries, and I can't imagine what it would do to them if they were forced to go back to Mexico."

In-humane??? They aren't supposed to be here anyways! Did they not know the penalties of crossing when they did? Did they not understand that maybe, just maybe, if caught, they would be sent back? Well guess what??? I think it is in-humane for the taxpayers of this country to continue to support illegal immigration while we have starving families and children of our own. I think it is in-humane of these illegal immigrants to cross the border flying the Mexican Flag, when you are now in another country. I find it in-humane that we must change our way of speaking to accomodate those that don't belong here anyways. And I find it in-humane that we are supposed to be politically correct to a group of people that have no political stance anyways!

[tasala]

Barkiss,

Look pal, I understand the rule of the land. I understand the laws are laws. I understand the crossing illegally is just that illegal. In fact I think if mexican citizens are going to try to make a go of it here in the US, they should do so LEGALLY! They should not be forced into learning English, BUT IF THEY DO, chances are they will be more successful due to the simple fact that most everybody her speaks english. I learned English very very young, luckily and I think for their own good, Mexican citizens should make every attempt to learn that if they want to be successful.

I agree with alot of what you say regarding illegal crossings. By the way, the people I know pay for their own medical costs or don't receive proper medical attention at all because they can't afford . . . yes, they should have thought about that when they crossed illegally.

I guess what I was trying to point out, which you Bone-Headedly refuse to see, is that when it comes to humane-kind, that sometimes the law-of-the-land can be very harsh. DO I HAVE THE ANSWER . . . NO. But If you think it is as simple as you put it, then I am glad not everyone is like you. Shouldn't we as humane beings try to improve the situation of our neighbors? Yes, we have starving children of our own . . . what do you suggest we do about that? Should the US stop humanitarian aid to countries suffering from natural disasters? They aren't American by golly. Pretty narrow minded in my opinion.

[Barkiss]

LOL - Bone-head? I don't remember insulting your personally, so I'll just thank you for the compliment.

Comparing humanitarian aid to countries suffering from natural disasters to supporting individuals crossing illegally into another country is like...well...apples and oranges. I am all for Wal-Mart and Seven-11 building a crap load of stores in Mexico. I'm all for the Mexican government getting itself out the corruptness and start running the country like you would expect it should with a neighbor like the United States.

My point is and will remain that times have changed. Security and independence needs to become a focus of the U.S.. And I think that you, along with the rest of the country are finding out that more people do believe and think the way I do.

[tasala]

My apologies for the Bone-head remark. I got a little pissed off by the mexican flag comment i guess. I totally understand where you are coming from. US security should absolutely be of paramount importance. I too get annoyed at the attitude that some of these protestors have. I mean, as you point out, it is illegal immigration. As i mentioned before, I know many such people, but I also know many people, mexican, russian, indian, who are here Legally. But, you have to understand where the Mexicans are coming from. I say, "understand", not "agree with". But I think it is important to at least understand that they are fleeing a corrupt govt, where laws mean nothing and fences were made to be torn. I remember growing up in el paso tx and they spent millions putting up a "tortilla fence" which was supposed to be indestructable, couldnt cut it . . . yeah right. It was torn within a week of being up. Back in the late 70s, they also erected cameras to follow illegal immigrants through the streets . . . a lot of good that did when no one is around to give chase. I really doubt a wall is going to work either. I also do not think we will ever stop illegal immigration from Mexico as long as Mexico is as corrupt as it is and I don't see that changing for another 100 years. So, with that, the question remains what to do. Maybe we build the wall, I don't know. It just pisses me off to no end that the govt of Mexico is so corrupt that people are fleeing for a better life, and they are the ones who suffer. Anyway, I am rambling.

Sorry again for the bone headed comment. I wish i had a better answer.

[Barkiss]

No apologies necessary...I got heated myself. It is a tense conversation piece.

Let me rephrase that I am for and will support all legal immigration. It is what makes this country great. So please understand I'm not for packing up anyone with a Mexican heritage and throwing them across the Rio Grande. I lived in San Antonio for 6 years and still have a great many friends there who are hispanic. I do not have anything against that or any race, because as you stated...we are all immigrants in one sense of another.

Since you have lived here most of your life, you know the American Flag and it's meaning to this country. My comment regarding the Mexican Flag is I feel it is disrepectful. If that flag means so much, then why not fly it in Mexico?

I wish I had all the answers too. Thanks for the debate. Without debates like this...we don't learn...and believe it or not, I learn even when I'm being bone-headed! :)

[Sunfiresix]

I too am catholic but do feel that something has to be done. A person that enters illegally should be sent back, but as our country was founded to allow immigrants the chance of a better life, those that enter legally should be protected. Walls and armies only cause more tension all the way around. I wish there were a better way to control the problem. I agree but with reservations, there are very good argument for and aginst. I admit I am confused.

[Annie]

I am hispanic and catholic. my grandfather crossed the border when he was 7. That was back in 1888 when border enforcement was essentially non-existant. This is not a simple issue. On the one hand, we are all immigrants unless 100% native-american. On the other hand, we do have borders and a process for legal immigration into the US.


I'm sorry, I don't consider my father's family immigrants. My father's family came here in 1772. My father's family fought in the Revolutionary War (and his decendants fought in nearly every war that America has ever been in). What does that make him?
On the other hand, my mother's came here in 1884 legally and within a few years became citizens as soon as they we eligible.

[gnikeht]

I'm a hispanic and also a Catholic. I think this is a though issue with no simple solution. My thought is that, if those illegal imigrants have in someway contributed to society and if they have integrated into the American society then they should be able to be legalized, however, if they have a become a burden to society then they should be deported immediately with no appealing recourse.

Like many of you have stated here, most illegal inmigrants come from countries where corruption is the way of life, and the US spends considerably amounts of money to help these governments and what they're doing is feeding their corrupt governments. The problem is that the US have to invest in ideas where they make these countries economies more sustainable and have better accountability of how the money is used. This is not happening, and worse the US cannot enforce their laws in these countries if the monies are wrongly used.

[sweetgapeach]

"That is simply in-humane. I know many hard-working individuals who have crossed illegally, started families here, raised US-born children on minimum wage salaries, and I can't imagine what it would do to them if they were forced to go back to Mexico."

In-humane??? They aren't supposed to be here anyways! Did they not know the penalties of crossing when they did? Did they not understand that maybe, just maybe, if caught, they would be sent back? Well guess what??? I think it is in-humane for the taxpayers of this country to continue to support illegal immigration while we have starving families and children of our own. I think it is in-humane of these illegal immigrants to cross the border flying the Mexican Flag, when you are now in another country. I find it in-humane that we must change our way of speaking to accomodate those that don't belong here anyways. And I find it in-humane that we are supposed to be politically correct to a group of people that have no political stance anyways!


I have to agree with Bar on this !! I see it the same way and it makes me mad , and I think it's unfair !!

[tasala]

Thanks Barkiss. Tough issue indeed. I actually was born in the US and proud to be an American (sounds like a song), but if someone comes over legally and wave the mexican flag, so be it. That's all I was saying.

Annie: Don't you think it is ironic, from a purely ideologic standpoint, that a country founded by immigrants has to have borders preventing illegal immigration. Yes, we have to have borders, I totally understand and accept that, otherwise we simply couldnt exist as a country. I also do not think it is fair for non-taxpayers to receive state-administered benefits. If people want to have such benefits, they should apply for legal residency. I know alot of mexicans living and working here legally and they have worked hard to work up from minimum wage to better paying positions. It is easy for me to say, whay can't they all do the same thing? How easy is it to get legal residency now? Maybe some of these immigrants do not want to wait however long that takes. It is easy for me to say, too bad, you have to wait and go through the proper channels.

Again, I am not saying you have to agree with it, but at least see it from the perspective of the people leaving a corrupt govt. Remember, this is a country that has many natural resources to prosper. No reason not too, except that the country is being run by crooks. As long as that is happening there will be people trying to leave. Not an easy prospect to change a countries ways.


Anyway, thanks for the discussion. As Barkiss put it, without debate we don't learn. Your not the only bone-head here . . . just ask my wife. LOL

[Wet Beaver]

I am hispanic and catholic. my grandfather crossed the border when he was 7. That was back in 1888 when border enforcement was essentially non-existant. This is not a simple issue. On the one hand, we are all immigrants unless 100% native-american. On the other hand, we do have borders and a process for legal immigration into the US. It seems to me that the proposed legislation is an attempt at addressing the people who are here illegally, allowing them the chance at legal immigration. I do not think it is fair to separate these people into classes based on length of time they have been in the US. I wish i had a better suggestion, but I also applaud the attempt at some type of reform. Not sure I have a better suggestion, but I am against simply forcing everyone back. That is simply in-humane. I know many hard-working individuals who have crossed illegally, started families here, raised US-born children on minimum wage salaries, and I can't imagine what it would do to them if they were forced to go back to Mexico.

This seems a bit more complicated to simply write a letter opposing those opposed to effective immigration control. What do you suggest Spare_change?

As for the catholic church - the church as provided immigration and refugee assistance for years. before chastising the march, ask yourself who lead the march? Was it one single priest? Diocese? Was it condoned by the local Bishop? I really wonder if the church took an official stance on this march or if this happended to be a local rallying point for the demonstrators. Regardless, the Church should stand for human dignity and it should support programs and legislation that negatively that. Are walls really the answer? I thought some wall came down a few years ago?

ok in the 1880..in the west the rule of law was very laxs..but we are not in the 1880's any more.... how would Mexico treat 11 to 12 million people who just crossed there boders..demanded free medical, free schooling, and now wave the flag of the there home country...when they came here Illeagly....
the last time when we were suppose to fix the trouble...with illeagles 1986...we let 3 million become citizens....now 20 years later they want to to give 12 million law breakers...with no background checks...or if they are felons...citizenship......i think you better learn on what Mexico would do.....Mexico has the army on there souther boader.....and all immerigants are even leagals one...are never allow to be full citizens of Mexico....

sorry this is a hot button issue for me...i have seen how ....illeagls have wereck my home state......hospitals are closeing...schools are overcrowed....sign in spanish...prison are full...and the biggest offender are illeagles...and our state goverment hasn't done shat......i will get off the soap box now......:spbx:

[Zpanther]

Disadvantaged people coming here from some other country is no excuse. There are millions upon millions of disadvantaged people around the world. Most of 'em would love to come to the U.S. Mexico just happens to be close and the border basically unguarded. We can't have all the disadvantaged peoples of the world coming here. Then we'd quickly all become disadvantaged. Unfortunately, that isn't he only issue here. The border is so easy to cross there is really very little problem for terrorists to come to Mexico and walk across the border. The majority of the illegals coming across are Mexicans, but certainly not all of 'em.

[Annie]

Annie: Don't you think it is ironic, from a purely ideologic standpoint, that a country founded by immigrants has to have borders preventing illegal immigration. Yes, we have to have borders, I totally understand and accept that, otherwise we simply couldnt exist as a country. I also do not think it is fair for non-taxpayers to receive state-administered benefits. If people want to have such benefits, they should apply for legal residency. I know alot of mexicans living and working here legally and they have worked hard to work up from minimum wage to better paying positions. It is easy for me to say, whay can't they all do the same thing? How easy is it to get legal residency now? Maybe some of these immigrants do not want to wait however long that takes. It is easy for me to say, too bad, you have to wait and go through the proper channels.


In my opinion, (I could be totally wrong here) I am having a hard time thinking of my anscesters (on my father's side) as immigrants. The reason is that when they came here, England was still collecting taxes from them and they were still under British rule. I think we called them expatriates only after they fought the British rule. I do think we are a nation of immigrants, but not founded by immigrants. (Yeah, I'm splittin hairs here, I know)

My mother's side had to wait for many years to become citizens and none of the citizenship papers were written in czech!! My feelings are if you are not willing to wait, if you are not willing to go through the proper channels and you are not willing to learn the language, then you have no right to the benifits of being an American. You clearly don't want it badly enough.

[Wet Beaver]

really i would like the U.S. to mirrored Mexico laws On illegals........if they make good for them...if they don't a jail cell for 20 years....beated...if they don't have money...killed.....or right we can't do that we are thr United States......... btw...why is it only Mexicans who will do jobs that "americans won't do" how come blacke in N.O La.. aren't being paid $10.00 a hour to rebulid.... how come hight school kids are not working in Taco bells...for $7.00 a hour.......

[Cotties]

I know I stand in a corner on my own but the immediate problem" too many people running across the border" needs to be slowed. The wall will do it. I watched a show recently about Hondurians illegally entering Mexico to get to the U.S because it is common knowledge from the Mexicans you can just walk across when arriving at the U.S border. The problems was it is a business for many Mexicans to bring the Hondurians across. The biggest problems they face were extortion and rape from Mexican police and the mafia. The people of Mexico show very little sympathy for these illegals who enter their country and yet when they enter the U.S they expect the promised land to take care of them.

Many know I'm Australian. We are an island in the middle of now where. We get boat loads of Afganis, Iraqis, Indonesians and who knows what arriving at our doors with the expectations of money and an easy lifestyle. If we catch them we lock them up in camps while we process them. It sometimes takes months. The outrage these people have that we should treat them this way is mind bogling.They all claim to be refugees and yet could not apply legally for immagration to our country. The real problem is they don't have any proof of where they are from and often pay good money to mafios to get here.

This subject has very little to do with race and needs to be seperated from it.
National security is what it is all about.

Tasala: When I get a chance I'll look into the priests and churches involvement in the protest. What I saw on CNN asia was an American priest leadingt his followers out of his church and was the trying to be the spokesman for the group and he was saying it was inhumane to hand illegals over to the government as he disagreed with their policy.

[Sandy]

well spare i wrote, i just hope to god it works. :wa:

[spare_change]

well spare i wrote, i just hope to god it works. :wa:

Thank you, MWM -- we shall see.

Unfortunately, as is always the case, an issue of security and humanity has devolved to a political issue. The porousness of the borders, the ill treatment of illegal immigrants, the drain on the US economy, the impact of losing "cheap" labor --- none of this matters any more. All that matters is political votes -- and organized demonstrations like we have seen in the last two weeks influence our lawmakers. They will not do what is right for the country --- they will do what is right for them. If they think courting the Hispanic vote will get them re-elected, that's the way they will vote. If they think they will lose the white vote, they will vote that way.

So, everybody - pro or con - needs to make themselves heard. This is an issue that needs to be decided by the people, not a group of self-serving politicians who spend their time in the ivory castle called Washington DC and are insulated from the real world.

[spare_change]

I truly enjoy a spirited discussion -- and I commend each and all for their inputs. Definitely given me something to ponder .....

I think it is important to divide the immigration issue into its components -- legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, and border management.

The last first --- without effective border management, any attempt to deal with the immigration issues is futile. Is the fence the answer? It can be -- providing it is backed up with rapid response and, most importantly, effective and committed application of the immigration laws.

No one has any problems with legal immigrants currently in-country. However, it must be said that there does not seem to be a societal attempt to assimilate themselves into the US fabric. Waving the Mexican flag, whether we like it or not, does clearly indicate a lack of respect for the US --- man can serve only one country, and waving the Mexican flag clearly indicates the choice. I believe in ESL (English as a Second Language) programs, concerted civics programs to teach new immigrants the way of the land -- for these things, I happily pay my tax dollars. I have no problem giving them medical care, allowing them into the school systems -- in fact, I am willing to foot the bill for a LIMITED time (3 years??). After that, if you haven't become a productive member of the US society, you should be sent back.

For illegal immigrants -- I have no such empathy. The disregard for our laws, and our way of life, does not impress me. Contrary to what you hear, MOST illegal immigrants do NOT pay taxes -- for fear of being discovered. If you are illegal - i don't care if it's 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or 60 years -- you should have to return to your home country. I do believe that preferential treatment should be given to those illegal immigrants when they attempt to re-enter legally, but I'm not sure how in the world you would establish the standards.

The immigration process needs to be simplified, with clear milestones that must be met. In addition, to obtain legal immigration, it is almost required that you use an immigration lawyer (at a cost of $13-20,000). If you don't, you aren't going to get approved. That is totally impractical for an immigrant from a country where the ANNUAL wages can be about the same as our DAILY wage here.

The issue of cheap labor??? Pure bunk -- this country would not collapse without this class of cheap enslavement -- if you offer me enough money, I will pick your oranges for you. Raise the wages for unskilled labor to a reasonable (define that as a living wage) amount, and cancel the gimme programs that subsidize people for not working, and you will have an unskilled labor force available to the work "Americans don't want to do".

So, the answers are there -- the real question is whether we have the will to make our wishes known to the people who are getting paid to implement our wishes.

[Norfolkdave]

I know I stand in a corner on my own but the immediate problem" too many people running across the border" needs to be slowed. The wall will do it. I watched a show recently about Hondurians illegally entering Mexico to get to the U.S because it is common knowledge from the Mexicans you can just walk across when arriving at the U.S border. The problems was it is a business for many Mexicans to bring the Hondurians across. The biggest problems they face were extortion and rape from Mexican police and the mafia. The people of Mexico show very little sympathy for these illegals who enter their country and yet when they enter the U.S they expect the promised land to take care of them.

Many know I'm Australian. We are an island in the middle of now where. We get boat loads of Afganis, Iraqis, Indonesians and who knows what arriving at our doors with the expectations of money and an easy lifestyle. If we catch them we lock them up in camps while we process them. It sometimes takes months. The outrage these people have that we should treat them this way is mind bogling.They all claim to be refugees and yet could not apply legally for immagration to our country. The real problem is they don't have any proof of where they are from and often pay good money to mafios to get here.

This subject has very little to do with race and needs to be seperated from it.
National security is what it is all about.

Tasala: When I get a chance I'll look into the priests and churches involvement in the protest. What I saw on CNN asia was an American priest leadingt his followers out of his church and was the trying to be the spokesman for the group and he was saying it was inhumane to hand illegals over to the government as he disagreed with their policy.


Here here cottires we are in the same boat to speak, Immigrants flooding this small island, they cheat their way into society and if they dont geyt their free house milk and money they can afford a bloody good solicitor on yes Legal aid then they dictate their human rights. I say if they want to become British make them join the army for 3 years, learn to respect the British People. But Tony Bloody Blair wont hear of this, Oh no, he lets all and suindry in because he hasnt the guts to do his job properly, no he sends brave men and women into Iraq, Oh mouth all mighty there he is, but stopping immigrants No. Tony Blair all hot air.

[SirFox]

The immigration issue is not only a US problem, or a UK problem: it is a modern developed society problem. I use this last term to remind ourselves that certain countries like Albania, Bulgaria and Roumania are barely self sustaining and therefore are excluded. Australia and New Zealand are of course included and so is Japan.

Where does Thailand lie? I do not know.

The immigration issue has many facets which include those of the North-South problems, the developed countries versus the underdeveloped countries (let's call a horse a horse, shall we, and stop pussy footing around???) and their populations, the contracts and business that the developed countries have with shitty regimes that we all maintain, as well as these nations' populations wishing a peaceful life which includes refusing certain employment and not getting your hands dirty.

We are dealing with different cultural and civilization problems. One thing is certain: measures have to be taken as a society cannot continue to maintain itself if a continuous stream of foreigners arrive on our "shores".

Has any government been able to handle this problem adequately?

I would like to hear from our emminent sociologist, Yasar, on his views on this issue.

[Eric69]

I'm sorry, I don't consider my father's family immigrants. My father's family came here in 1772. My father's family fought in the Revolutionary War (and his decendants fought in nearly every war that America has ever been in). What does that make him?
On the other hand, my mother's came here in 1884 legally and within a few years became citizens as soon as they we eligible.



on my moms side of the family she has relitives that were here in 1640 in plymouth. Dads side came over from holand about the same time as your moms releitves and farmed in SD.

[CJSinIL]

Will be an interesting election to see what happens to all the members of the Senate when re-election comes up. They forget, illegal immigrants can't vote. Doh!!!

[SirFox]

Will be an interesting election to see what happens to all the members of the Senate when re-election comes up. They forget, illegal immigrants can't vote. Doh!!!

I think we will see in the COMING months many democracies having to work it out on the immigration issue. I can see that coming down the road in many countries in the next 12 to 18 months. Let's see what happens...and yes...the US Senate and the House will certainly see many changes this November as a consequence of this and other issues....

It is worth living.
Let's sit back with a glass of red wine and watch the theatrics of democracies figuring out what to do. :)

[spare_change]

"... theatrics of democracies ...." ??? Do I detect a hint of cynicism?? Perhaps, a better alternative??

[SirFox]

"... theatrics of democracies ...." ??? Do I detect a hint of cynicism?? Perhaps, a better alternative??

Indeed BIG MAN... you are correct. Having seen totalitarian societies in action close up and democracies at work, I find it difficult to see the difference in the decision-making process or for that matter, to the outcome.

I am sure that you have some different idea and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter. :D

[spare_change]

Indeed BIG MAN... you are correct. Having seen totalitarian societies in action close up and democracies at work, I find it difficult to see the difference in the decision-making process or for that matter, to the outcome.

I am sure that you have some different idea and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter. :D

Obviously, I quite disagree. Totalitarian societies function to satisfy a single authority, while democracies function to satisfy a much larger base (we can argue whether that is the general population - which we like to think it is - or an elite class - which it probably is - but, the fact remains that it is not single person focused, and that the needs of more than one must be considered). That leverage is what makes democracy the least harmful of government strategies.

The problem I have, however, rests more with your supposition that you will sit by and watch what happens, rather than become involved in the process. I will grant you that it is much easier to sit on the sidelines -- then, no matter what happens, you can claim that you would have done it differently (when it fails) or that you were right on in your recommendations (if it works).

I challenge you,and all, to get off the bench and get into the game. A laissez-faire approach to management of our governments is exactly what the problem is -- it isn't the government that is at fault (all governments, by definition, are corrupt and self serving), rather it is the inertia of the uninvolved that allows that government to continue its ways.

I watch the French blame their government - it's easier than really addressing the problem. I watch the Hispanics blame a corrupt government and run to the US -- it's easier than fixing the problem. I watch the Palestinians allow themselves to be led by murderous thugs -- it's easier than deposing them. I watch the Iranians being controlled by a certifiable homicidal maniac -- it's easier than challenging him.

So, while it is very cosmopolitan to sit at the roadside cafe, sip tea, and watch the parade go by, I would suggest the time has come to get your hands dirty, get involved, and contribute. Because, as always, you are going to get just exactly what you deserve.

[gnikeht]

No, but their legal families can...



Will be an interesting election to see what happens to all the members of the Senate when re-election comes up. They forget, illegal immigrants can't vote. Doh!!!

[gnikeht]

I truly enjoy a spirited discussion -- and I commend each and all for their inputs. Definitely given me something to ponder .....

I think it is important to divide the immigration issue into its components -- legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, and border management.

The last first --- without effective border management, any attempt to deal with the immigration issues is futile. Is the fence the answer? It can be -- providing it is backed up with rapid response and, most importantly, effective and committed application of the immigration laws.


Your right, a wall by itself won't be the answer, the truth is a long border, building a wall will only deter some but not all...remember they have found tunnels beneath the border, so what impedes a tunnel beneath the wall?


No one has any problems with legal immigrants currently in-country. However, it must be said that there does not seem to be a societal attempt to assimilate themselves into the US fabric. Waving the Mexican flag, whether we like it or not, does clearly indicate a lack of respect for the US --- man can serve only one country, and waving the Mexican flag clearly indicates the choice. I believe in ESL (English as a Second Language) programs, concerted civics programs to teach new immigrants the way of the land -- for these things, I happily pay my tax dollars. I have no problem giving them medical care, allowing them into the school systems -- in fact, I am willing to foot the bill for a LIMITED time (3 years??). After that, if you haven't become a productive member of the US society, you should be sent back.

I do believe inmigrants should assimilate themselves in order to be integrated into society, but they will never loose their roots. This can be evidenced by people that imigrated long time ago and still have their customs. I can think of Italians here.


For illegal immigrants -- I have no such empathy. The disregard for our laws, and our way of life, does not impress me. Contrary to what you hear, MOST illegal immigrants do NOT pay taxes -- for fear of being discovered. If you are illegal - i don't care if it's 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or 60 years -- you should have to return to your home country. I do believe that preferential treatment should be given to those illegal immigrants when they attempt to re-enter legally, but I'm not sure how in the world you would establish the standards.

I don't believe they should be given preferential treatment just because they were illegal inmigrants before. That will be like rewarding them for being bold in the past. They should only be given preferential if they can prove they contributed to society during their time here as an illegal.


The immigration process needs to be simplified, with clear milestones that must be met. In addition, to obtain legal immigration, it is almost required that you use an immigration lawyer (at a cost of $13-20,000). If you don't, you aren't going to get approved. That is totally impractical for an immigrant from a country where the ANNUAL wages can be about the same as our DAILY wage here.

Agree 100%, the only benefit there is for the lawyers...but then most rules are written up by layers....


The issue of cheap labor??? Pure bunk -- this country would not collapse without this class of cheap enslavement -- if you offer me enough money, I will pick your oranges for you. Raise the wages for unskilled labor to a reasonable (define that as a living wage) amount, and cancel the gimme programs that subsidize people for not working, and you will have an unskilled labor force available to the work "Americans don't want to do".

Of course and then the oranges and tomatoes and lettuce and all the others will cost more to us. Believe me, no company will cut their profit, they will only raise their prices. This of course will create a cyclic problem, the products will go higher, the people will need more money and then the offered salaries won't be enough. I do agree with cancelling the gimme programs, it has been proved they don't work.


So, the answers are there -- the real question is whether we have the will to make our wishes known to the people who are getting paid to implement our wishes.

The will is there...but then there are others that not necessarilly agree with us and also have a will....

[Wet Beaver]

why is every one looking at this for there lettice and tomatoes?? did ya know...that the average household spends about 400 dollars a year on veggies.... on that cost...the farmer might get 200 dollars..... the Illegal in the field might...read it again MIGHT get 25 dollars...why is everyone so willing...yes you if you support Illeagl immergration....what to have a sub class of citizens again....if the U.S. makes them legal...and the cost go up for them to pick youe lettice...or oranges.....won't the next round of illegals just move in and take there jobs?? it is not just for us to eat..it is for this country to secured her border..and for once stand up to mexico...

[Norfolkdave]

So, everybody - pro or con - needs to make themselves heard. This is an issue that needs to be decided by the people, not a group of self-serving politicians who spend their time in the ivory castle called 10 Downing st London. and are insulated from the real world.


We the people of the United Kindom are fed up with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown taxing us, yet doing nothing to stop Illegal immigration, now in this country we cannot have nursery rymes saying " Baa Black sheep, people cannot have porcelain pigs in their windows, we cannot have Hot Cross Buns, even christmas is going to be taken oput...Why... incase if offends certain people. This country has allowed radcals in to virtually do as they please, icite racial hatred by being allowed to walk the streets with boards saying " Europe needs another 9/11 behead those who dont believe" Tony Blair and the Home Secretary hide behind their doors while illegal immgrants murder and moan if caught about their civil rights. Yet Tony Blair can send yound men and women off to IraQ, yey he isnt strong enough to enforce the law at our borders. Since because of his softness London has been bombed, our borders are non existant, he has given these people the green light to come into this country and get free NHS treatment, free housing, free benifits. Our laws in the UK are terrible now, people cant go out in the streets for fear of being beaten up, yet Tony Blair was heard to say we are going to get tough on the yobs, again Hot air Blair vocing his vocal cords yet hes strong enough to attack the needy and say we are going to get 1,000, 000 back to work. Oh yes Blair is tough on those that need help, if he sorted out the bloody illigal immigrants us, the needy could live our lives. Tony Blair I detest him I despite him and he should go. Our Taxes have risen two fold, our pensions gone to pay for the Iraq War, Old People have to sell their houses to pay for medical care while Tony Bloody Blair buys a multi million pound jet to fly round the world like your President. Yes Bush is up his arse so far hes begining to walk like him too.:spbx:

[SirFox]

Obviously, I quite disagree. Totalitarian societies function to satisfy a single authority, while democracies function to satisfy a much larger base (we can argue whether that is the general population - which we like to think it is - or an elite class - which it probably is - but, the fact remains that it is not single person focused, and that the needs of more than one must be considered). That leverage is what makes democracy the least harmful of government strategies.... Because, as always, you are going to get just exactly what you deserve.


SPARE CHANGE: Are you okay ? You are not ill? You were not convulsing into a cerebral orgasm by any chance while you were writing? LOL.

Well written as usual. I completely agree with you. I am looking at taking action. A whole campaign will be needed. When this gets underway, I will have to choose between ranting on this Forum and doing my piece. You had better sell your stocks in anything European then.

That was a pleasant piece Spare and I enjoyed it. You have a mastery of words that I would like to have...and without sticking it in like some months ago, you get your points across and have people agree with you. Keep going and you will be the next speech writer for whomever you choose.

[tiger50]

SPARE CHANGE: Are you okay ? You are not ill? You were not convulsing into a cerebral orgasm by any chance while you were writing? LOL.

Well written as usual. I completely agree with you. I am looking at taking action. A whole campaign will be needed. When this gets underway, I will have to choose between ranting on this Forum and doing my piece. You had better sell your stocks in anything European then.

That was a pleasant piece Spare and I enjoyed it. You have a mastery of words that I would like to have...and without sticking it in like some months ago, you get your points across and have people agree with you. Keep going and you will be the next speech writer for whomever you choose.

or president???? :D

[SirFox]

or president???? :D

Let's ask the Ladies on the Forum here is Spare has a chance at being President....one needs to be relatively good looking with some brains, and some sex appeal...anyone ever see Spare Change? :D

[Annie]

Let's ask the Ladies on the Forum here is Spare has a chance at being President....one needs to be relatively good looking with some brains, and some sex appeal...anyone ever see Spare Change? :D

Maybe that's the problem, what does sex appeal and good looks have to do with the ability to run a country? Personally, though I may not always agree with Spare and quite a few times he has rubbed me the wrong way, I think his intellect and communication skills more than make up for what ever he may look like. I truly believe that he would do a much better job than most, he would get my vote!

[spare_change]

Maybe that's the problem, what does sex appeal and good looks have to do with the ability to run a country? Personally, though I may not always agree with Spare and quite a few times he has rubbed me the wrong way, I think his intellect and communication skills more than make up for what ever he may look like. I truly believe that he would do a much better job than most, he would get my vote!

Thank you, Annie -- most kind!

Unfortunately, my style of forthrightness and bluntness is not well suited for today's political climate. I would be required to offend no one -- an impossible task for anyone who truly believes in the right way.

[Norfolkdave]

Thank you, Annie -- most kind!

Unfortunately, my style of forthrightness and bluntness is not well suited for today's political climate. I would be required to offend no one -- an impossible task for anyone who truly believes in the right way.

I think is bloody good, I wish I had words of expression like you thats for sure, but afraid I havent.

[Barkiss]

Thank you, Annie -- most kind!

Unfortunately, my style of forthrightness and bluntness is not well suited for today's political climate. I would be required to offend no one -- an impossible task for anyone who truly believes in the right way.

Maybe that's not only what we need, but what we actually want...you should consider it...passion can make great things happen, and you my friend are full of passion.

[spare_change]

Maybe that's not only what we need, but what we actually want...you should consider it...passion can make great things happen, and you my friend are full of passion.

Now accepting political donations (they're tax deductible!)

[Barkiss]

Now accepting political donations (they're tax deductible!)

As soon as you decide to do it...contact me. I'm always up for a good tax deduction.

[Norfolkdave]

As soon as you decide to do it...contact me. I'm always up for a good tax deduction.

Do we get a tax deduction for Viagra!

[Annie]

Do we get a tax deduction for Viagra!

and you think Viagra going to help you get some? I thought you were always "locked and loaded"!

[Norfolkdave]

and you think Viagra going to help you get some? I thought you were always "locked and loaded"!

Bloody am but just in case, even the best weapons have to have a spare incase

[Sandy]

spare i think you would be great as persident, i really wish you would run, we need somebody like u in office. :wa: :kk

[SirFox]

SPARE: Do you need an international political analyst for your campaign?

[spare_change]

SPARE: Do you need an international political analyst for your campaign?

Absolutely! Unquestionably, my foreign policy needs to be worked on ("nuke em til they glow" doesn't seem to be viable)

[yaser]

Serious actions have been started in this thread,if somebody explains I will be very glad.I am illiterate.Who has started and where is it going?

[yaser]

Serious actions have been started in this thread,if somebody explains I will be very glad.I am illiterate.Who has started and where is it going?Political campaign in the flirting forum?

[spjimbo]

Absolutely! Unquestionably, my foreign policy needs to be worked on ("nuke em til they glow" doesn't seem to be viable)

I like this policy!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Annie]

Political campaign in the flirting forum?

No Yasar, it's in the Current Events and Real Life forum, although there is flirting here too.

[Cotties]

I would like to be in charge of your slander campaigns if thats possible Spare.:55


Vote Spare! he'll tell ya whats what!......oops wrong campaign
Absolutely! Unquestionably, my foreign policy needs to be worked on ("nuke em til they glow" doesn't seem to be viable)

[MCat]

Unfortunately, my style of forthrightness and bluntness is not well suited for today's political climate. I would be required to offend no one -- an impossible task for anyone who truly believes in the right way.

You have the same forthrightness and bluntness that my Dad has. You would have a great time debating with him.

He taught us to take care of ourselves, if you need to eat...git off your ass and work for it. If you rape and kill someone we will put you to death- none of this letting the taxpayers pay for you to be taken care of...sitting in prison watching TV, getting your law degree at no charge.

Oh how I wish we had government officials with balls.

By the way....
I sent my 3 emails this morning...2 senators and 1 representative.

[MCat]

Do we get a tax deduction for Viagra!

If your Dr. prescribes it and your medical deductions are an ungodly percentage of your income....then yes you can.

[MCat]

Absolutely! Unquestionably, my foreign policy needs to be worked on "nuke em til they glow" doesn't seem to be viable)

That one works for me.

[Shiane]

I did contact my congressmen about immigration and this is one response I received back. Just thought I would share it.

This is from Senator Jim Inhofe.

Thank you for your comments regarding illegal immigration. As your voice in Washington , D.C. , I appreciate knowing your views on this issue.



As you probably know, the debate surrounding immigration reform has been one of the most tenuous of the 109 th Congress. My goals with respect to immigration have always been to enhance border security, to oppose amnesty, and to improve the naturalization process for immigrants who legally enter the United States .



Like most of my constituents in Oklahoma , I was dismayed by the amnesty proposal (Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2006, S. 2611) that the Senate passed in April. Though the bill had some good provisions, like my amendment to make English the national language, it posed a number of more serious problems, like a guest worker program that would eventually grant citizenship to individuals illegally living in the United States . I voted against S. 2611, which eventually passed with a vote of 62-36.



Even though I am disappointed that S. 2611 passed in the Senate, the good news is this bill, like any legislation, does not become law until the House of Representatives also approves it and the President signs it. By passing a tough border enforcement bill in December (Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005, H.R. 4437), the Members of the House of Representatives showed that they are concerned with restoring the rule of law and securing our borders before making any hasty decisions regarding a potential guest worker program. The likelihood that the House would pass the Senate bill without significant changes is extremely low.



Since the House and Senate bills are so different, the move to a Conference Committee - where representatives from the Senate and the House resolve the differences between bills passed in each Chamber - has been considerably slow. During the month of August, both Chambers held field hearings around the country; at those hearings, as expected, sentiment was noticeably in support of the House enforcement approach. However, the Democrats and moderate Republicans who voted for the Senate bill continue to stand firm in support of amnesty.



While discussions take place leading up to the Conference Committee, the House of Representatives and Senate are considering a number of smaller bills that will address issues of immediate concern. For example, the Secure Fence Act of 2006, H.R. 6061, recently passed both Chambers of Congress and was signed by President Bush . H.R. 6061 allows for construction of 700 mile s of fenc ing along the Southern border. Having already proposed a fence in my immigration bill, the ENFORCE Act (S. 2117), and voting for including a fence in the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, I voted in favor of this legislation .


As more enforcement bills come before the Senate, I will keep your thoughts in mind. As always, I look to support legislation that helps secure our borders and opposes amnesty. If you would like more information on my stance and actions on illegal immigration, please visit my website ( www.inhofe.senate.gov (javascript:ol('http://www.inhofe.senate.gov/');)).



Thank you for your comments. Please continue to contact me with future concerns.

[Rmb]

spare i think you would be great as persident, i really wish you would run, we need somebody like u in office. :wa: :kk

Er well er...he is your brother right? :) You misspelled "persistent" tho.....:)
Just kidding please don't crucify me... I still have nail marks :)

[sparkle889beach]

I think, a lot of Filipinos go to the USA illegally, I feel sorry for them, and afraid for them...Because if they get caught their black-listed, not to mention it gives our country a bad reputation...And the rest are given a hard time, punished for what others did...I agree that laws should be respected and followed...As a Catholic, the church should just assist the needy, but not entangle themselves with politics...:)

[Norfolkdave]

I think, a lot of Filipinos go to the USA illegally, I feel sorry for them, and afraid for them...Because if they get caught their black-listed, not to mention it gives our country a bad reputation...And the rest are given a hard time, punished for what others did...I agree that laws should be respected and followed...As a Catholic, the church should just assist the needy, but not entangle themselves with politics...:)

Here Here :55

[Rmb]

spare i think you would be great as persident, i really wish you would run, we need somebody like u in office. :wa: :kk

Actually Sandy I have found over 10 million others who would like Spare to run also.....all Democrats...except for some retired postal workers with gun collections. :lmao

[Rmb]

As a practicing Catholic, I am appalled that the Church thinks it is appropriate for them to get involved in secular politics. Jesus himself said, " Render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's". The church does have a place in providing assistance, support, and charity to the poor --- and they should do that. But, for them to try to control national policy is outside their province.

WOW!!! Just a minute let me read that again!!! Am I dreaming???
Keep that statement next to your gun collection because I will remember it any time I see a word that attempts to justify religious interference in politics. :)
Finally I found one thing you said that I agree with !!! Wow!!!
Hey that was good!!! :lmao

[spare_change]

WOW!!! Just a minute let me read that again!!! Am I dreaming???
Keep that statement next to your gun collection because I will remember it any time I see a word that attempts to justify religious interference in politics. :)
Finally I found one thing you said that I agree with !!! Wow!!!
Hey that was good!!! :lmao

There is a significant difference, a difference Liberals seem unable to fathom, between political activism in the church, and the application of Christian principles in the government of the country.

Political activism should be avoided by the church, just as the government should not interfere in the practice of religion.

Christian principles, however, form the very bedrock of our nation's core, and as such, are appropriate and necessary. It is the straying from these principles that have gotten our government into trouble. So, lest you misunderstand, we need more Christian principles in our governance, and less religious organizations interfering.

As for my gun collection, it would be wise to remember it is there. As a Jeffersonian, I strongly believe that the people need to have the final, and ultimate, control of its government.

[Rmb]

There is a significant difference, a difference Liberals seem unable to fathom, between political activism in the church, and the application of Christian principles in the government of the country.

Political activism should be avoided by the church, just as the government should not interfere in the practice of religion.

Christian principles, however, form the very bedrock of our nation's core, and as such, are appropriate and necessary. It is the straying from these principles that have gotten our government into trouble. So, lest you misunderstand, we need more Christian principles in our governance, and less religious organizations interfering.

As for my gun collection, it would be wise to remember it is there. As a Jeffersonian, I strongly believe that the people need to have the final, and ultimate, control of its government.

Nah we all understand...Liberals cannot fathom...Only Republicans tell the truth... Yeah we all love those bedrock principles...Thou shalt not kill...Love your neighbour as yourself...Welcome aboard...No more nuke til they glow....
Did you notice two more leading Republicans were outed today? Gone to eternal damnation.....lest you misunderstand...keep those guns ready....someone has to be coming .....:lmao

[spare_change]

Nah we all understand...Liberals cannot fathom...Only Republicans tell the truth... Yeah we all love those bedrock principles...Thou shalt not kill...Love your neighbour as yourself...Welcome aboard...No more nuke til they glow....
Did you notice two more leading Republicans were outed today? Gone to eternal damnation.....lest you misunderstand...keep those guns ready....someone has to be coming .....:lmao


You know, the one thing I have noticed is that you are long on sarcasm, and short on potential solutions - a typical Liberal position.

Perhaps you could enlighten on your suggestions --- I noticed you didn't tell us what you would do if "You Were In Charge" -- here, i notice that you jab at suggestions and positions without offering substantive alternatives, and then when challenged, you hide behind hurt feelings, and refuse to comment.

Are you like the other Liberals, and have no answers, or do you merely wish to keep them to yourself and let us wander in the darkness?

[Rmb]

You know, the one thing I have noticed is that you are long on sarcasm, and short on potential solutions - a typical Liberal position.

Perhaps you could enlighten on your suggestions --- I noticed you didn't tell us what you would do if "You Were In Charge" -- here, i notice that you jab at suggestions and positions without offering substantive alternatives, and then when challenged, you hide behind hurt feelings, and refuse to comment.

Are you like the other Liberals, and have no answers, or do you merely wish to keep them to yourself and let us wander in the darkness?

Actually I am apolitical. As I have indicated previously.
My feelings are not hurt at all... I have no dog in the discussion. Or the previous one you alluded to where I offered clarification not argument.
Although I can readily see how you would be the first to leap into discussion about you being in charge...the subject has little interest for me.
As you fought so valiantly for democracy (in its purest form) I know you would defend my right to speak my mind whenever I saw comments from any source which I felt were anti democratic, extremist, or demeaning.
Your comments on the "If I were in charge" thread struck me as being more communist and dictatorial than democratic I chose to comment on it...my way. I dont have to offer alternatives despite your views that if I dont I should be gagged. My style is my own.
In your copius comments you often stray from the facts. You choose to constantly accuse "liberals" of having no brains,have no answers, people who disagree with your religious or economic views of lack of understanding etc. It really isn't that way in the real world...people to the left of Ghengis Khan are not all "liberals", and many people on this site have brains and lots of compassion.
As I indicated I am neither a dogmatic liberal, or a dogmatic conservative, but I reserve my right to comment if something seems out of line...in my way not yours. Have a great day baby :)
I give thanks for men and women of all nationalities who fought for freedom on this day of Rememberance :)

[spare_change]

Actually I am apolitical. As I have indicated previously.
My feelings are not hurt at all... I have no dog in the discussion. Or the previous one you alluded to where I offered clarification not argument.
Although I can readily see how you would be the first to leap into discussion about you being in charge...the subject has little interest for me.
As you fought so valiantly for democracy (in its purest form) I know you would defend my right to speak my mind whenever I saw comments from any source which I felt were anti democratic, extremist, or demeaning.
Your comments on the "If I were in charge" thread struck me as being more communist and dictatorial than democratic I chose to comment on it...my way. I dont have to offer alternatives despite your views that if I dont I should be gagged. My style is my own.
In your copius comments you often stray from the facts. You choose to constantly accuse "liberals" of having no brains,have no answers, people who disagree with your religious or economic views of lack of understanding etc. It really isn't that way in the real world...people to the left of Ghengis Khan are not all "liberals", and many people on this site have brains and lots of compassion.
As I indicated I am neither a dogmatic liberal, or a dogmatic conservative, but I reserve my right to comment if something seems out of line...in my way not yours. Have a great day baby :)
I give thanks for men and women of all nationalities who fought for freedom on this day of Rememberance :)

Despite your protestations, you most assuredly have carved out a political position. Your steadfast opposition to current policies most definitely places you in a political camp, whether you intended it or not.

The greatest dangers to democracy, whether it be yours or mine, is apathy and non-involvement. One of the problems that my democracy faces is the lack of involvement by its citizens. When the media praises the high voter turnout in the last election, and are excited because it reached 25%, that truly is a sad commentary. You continually espouse your non-involvement in issues political, so obviously, your democracy suffers from the same ills we do.

As for my comments being communist and dictatorial, you most assuredly have exposed your naivete, or lack of fundamental understanding over government pro formas. Each of the items noted, in fact, are tools used in most democracies throughout the world. But, given your "lack of involvement", I suspect that surprises you.

As usual, you misrepresent my position when you say that I claim that I "constantly accuse "liberals" of having no brains,have no answers, people who disagree with your religious or economic views of lack of understanding". I am going to address this in two separate areas, because for the convenience of your argument you choose to mix apples and oranges.

My statement about Liberals having no answers is a trademark of the current liberal movement. I challenge anyone to show us the alternative plan that the liberal movement put forth - they didn't, they hammered on the current policies, screaming that the sky was falling, and providing no solutions. I believe any thinking analysis of the current election would say that it was a vote against current policies, not for an alternative solution set. So, now we have people in power in Congress who have no idea how they are going to govern - instead, they plan to do what they have done for the past 5 years - attack the current policies without offering alternative solutions. You will see investigations and queries and committee meetings about what happened before -- but damn little discussion about what needs to happen next.

I have definitive religious views - and I make no apology for that. I put those forth, and I defend them, and I try to educate people so they can make informed decisions. You, on the other hand, stand on the sidelines, snickering behind your hand, and offer no substantive input other than to poke fun at anyone who might have the temerity to offer a position. That, coupled with what i can only define as your ignorance of economic principles and realities, does not result in any valuable input to a discussion, nor help to define potential solutions.

You certainly have the right to comment on anything presented, BUT you also have a responsibility to put forth cogent and pertinents inputs that further the discussion, rather than attack the people involved in order to feed a misguided sense of supercillious superiority.

[Rmb]

The greatest dangers to democracy, whether it be yours or mine, is apathy and non-involvement.


.

Nah the greatest dangers in my humble view are the coterie of right wing wackos of any stripe, religious or political, attempting to usurp democracy. People who seem to devote every waking hour to come up with arguments to support failed right wing extremist party lines. Lying to the American people etc. Thank God the American people dealt them a "thumpin' defeat" this election. The "liberal movement", was correct in calling for Rumsfelt's resignation....It is a pity that Bush didn't take action on that 2 years ago...It probably cost him the election.

The left wing wackos, who I also take note of, were disposed of years ago I no longer think they are a threat.

Your usual fall back position in pronouncing rude personal attacks are drivel ...and I dont stoop to that level... otherwise I would be typing all day, and incurring the wrath of our more rational moderators.

You state that you are an educator ...yet you seem to be obsessed with the now proven incorrect neo-con philosophy, and other extreme right wing views. This channels your thinking rather than expands it.

I intend to drop my involvement in all political and religious topics not because I am pouting, or retreating, or cannot answer your voluminous arguments if I chose, but because they bore me and others, judging by my PMs. So the soapbox is all yours...goodluck. I will not respond to any comments you make in future no matter how personal your attacks continue to be.
I trust one of the moderators here will caution you on your excesses in that regard, as I do not make it a policy to whine to them personally.

[spare_change]

How sad.

[yaser]

Originally Posted by spare_change

The greatest dangers to democracy, whether it be yours or mine, is apathy and non-involvement.
Spare,another danger in developing countries the majority of the people stick to religious matters and try to solve the problems from the frame point of view which discourages the scientific thinking and political partcipation.

[spare_change]

Originally Posted by spare_change

The greatest dangers to democracy, whether it be yours or mine, is apathy and non-involvement.
Spare,another danger in developing countries the majority of the people stick to religious matters and try to solve the problems from the frame point of view which discourages the scientific thinking and political partcipation.

Excellent point, yaser -- I think we can agree while religion has no dominant role in politics, that the principles taught by that religion should always be considered.

[yaser]

Excellent point, yaser -- I think we can agree while religion has no dominant role in politics, that the principles taught by that religion should always be considered.
Unfortunately we have a problem here to separate the function of religion from that of the politics...The majority believes that religion should interfere with politics and deal with worldly affairs instead of non-worldly affairs.

[spare_change]

Unfortunately we have a problem here to separate the function of religion from that of the politics...The majority believes that religion should interfere with politics and deal with worldly affairs instead of non-worldly affairs.

I think, to a great extent, the powers are using religion to control the people.

[yaser]

I think, to a great extent, the powers are using religion to control the people.
Totally aggree with you.They control masses because the religion is diffused among the masses...

[XMONKEYLOVINSX]

i must say i am one to be happy to live in the land of the free but i guess i got to agree with some people here i used to thin kit was ok let them in they can have a better life here and for the most part to them anyway it is true but then i look at the homeland issue for us and the more that come over the more you have to pay to be free and the only brave people are the ones jumping the fence.i think one thing people dont understand is it is hard enough to get by in this country unless you are well educated and well rich. but for the average every day struggling man or woman the more they come in the more we have to pay, taxes go up cause the number of people rise the number of people on welfare rise the more the government has to take from us to help support them and all they are really doing is taking the jobs it is so hard for us to find not paying a dime towrds taxes living off welfare and bottling up our money to send it back home so the others can either get over here too or become wealthy in a country that they couldnt have been before. i am not racist i do believe all men are created equal but i think if they are gonna be hear they need to be doing the same things we are.