Immigration - The Facts - You Decide

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The post below provides the FACTS surrounding the Illegal Immigration issues in the US today.

They are culled from the reports of several blogs and government reports, but delivered in a shell presented by The Heritage Foundation.

Read the FACTS - make a determination about where you stand - tell your congressman.


There are only two ways to be wrong - 1) be uninformed, or 2) take a position without knowing the facts.

This Illegal Immigration bill may be the most significant economic decision made in the next twenty years.

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Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion
by Robert E. Rector

The Senate is currently considering a massive immigration reform bill, the "Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007" (S. 1348). This bill would grant amnesty to nearly all illegal immigrants currently in the United States.

The fiscal consequences of this amnesty will vary depending on the time period analyzed. It is expected that many illegal immigrants who are currently working "off the books" and paying no direct taxes will begin to work "on the books" after receiving amnesty, and therefore tax payments will rise immediately. By contrast, under S. 1348, benefits to these immigrants from Social Security, Medicare, and most means-tested welfare programs (such as Food Stamps, public housing, and Temporary Assistance to Needy Families) will be delayed for many years. In consequence, then, the increase in taxes and fines paid by amnesty recipients may initially exceed slightly the increase in government benefits received. In the long run, however, the opposite will be true. In particular, the cost of retirement benefits for amnesty recipients is likely to be very large. Overall, the net cost to taxpayers of retirement benefits for amnesty recipients is likely to be at least $2.6 trillion.

Who Are the Illegal Immigrants?

According to the most widely accepted estimates, there were 11.5 million to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States in the spring of 2006.[1] Because the number of illegal immigrants has, on average, increased by roughly 500,000 each year, the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. in 2007 is probably around 12 million to 12.5 million; however, these estimates are uncertain, and the actual number of illegal immigrants may be higher.

49 percent of illegal immigrants are adult males, 35 percent are adult females, and 16 percent are foreign-born children. Living in illegal immigrant families are another 3.1 million U.S.-born children of illegal immigrant parents.[2] Because they were born inside the U.S., these children are considered citizens, not illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants now make up about 4 percent of the U.S. population, meaning that about one in twenty-five persons currently in the U.S. is here unlawfully. Illegal immigrants make up nearly one-third of the foreign-born population in the U.S.

More than half (56 percent) of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. Another 22 percent come from other Latin American countries, and 22 percent come from Asia, Europe, and Africa.[3]

Education of Illegal Immigrants.

Illegal immigrants generally have very low education levels. As Chart 3 shows, 61 percent of illegal immigrant adults lack a high school diploma, 25 percent have only a high school diploma, 5 percent have attended some college, and 9 percent are college graduates, according to the Center for Immigration Studies' estimates.[4] The Pew Hispanic Center estimates slightly higher education levels: 49 percent without a high school diploma, 25 percent with a high school diploma only, 10 percent with some college, and 15 percent with college degrees.[5] Overall, 49 to 61 percent of adult illegal immigrants lack a high school diploma, compared to 9 percent of native-born adults.

Illegal Immigrants and Poverty.

Because of their low education levels, illegal immigrants have a poverty rate that is roughly twice that of native-born Americans. As Chart 4 shows, the poverty rate of children in illegal immigrant families is 37 percent, compared to 17 percent among children in non-immigrant families. The poverty rate among adult illegal immigrants is 27 percent, compared to 13 percent among non-immigrant adults.

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S. 1348 and the Amnesty Process

The Senate's immigration reform bill would offer amnesty and a path to citizenship to the 12 million to 12.5 million illegal immigrants currently in the U.S. In addition, its lax evidentiary standards would encourage millions more to apply for amnesty fraudulently. Because there is no numeric limit on the number of amnesties that could be granted under the bill, the actual number who would receive amnesty under the bill could be far higher.

In general, under S. 1348, any person who was illegally present inside U.S. borders on January 1, 2007, is eligible for Z visa status, amnesty, and ultimately citizenship. Excluded from this rule are illegal immigrants subject to a formal deportation order issued prior to enactment of the legislation and illegal immigrants convicted of a felony or three misdemeanors prior to enactment. The amnesty process consists of four stages leading to citizenship.

Stage One: Probationary Z Visas. Within 180 days of enactment of the bill, the Secretary of Homeland Security would begin accepting applications for Z visa status from illegal immigrants. The Secretary can accept applications for up to two years. The Secretary must grant "probationary Z visa" status to all amnesty applicants who pass a background check that must be completed within one business day. Except for those failing the one-day background check, applicants will automatically be granted probationary status and issued appropriate documents on the day after their application, even if the background check has not been completed.[6]

Stage Two: Permanent Z Visas. The Secretary must issue a permanent Z visa to every applicant who is determined to have met four conditions: the individual was inside the U.S. unlawfully on January 1, 2007; has not left the U.S. for more than six months since then; is employed or is the spouse or child of an employed applicant; and has passed more thorough criminal background checks that may be required. Each Z visa is good for four years and can be renewed indefinitely for the rest of the Z visa holder's life.[7] The Secretary cannot grant permanent Z visas unless the modest enforcement trigger provisions of S. 1348 have been met.[8]

Stage Three: Legal Permanent Residence (LPR).All Z visa holders who pay a $4,000 fine and pass an English test would become eligible for legal permanent residence (also known as green card status). Z visa holders must go abroad to apply for LPR status but may return to the U.S. the same day. No later than 8 years after enactment, the Secretary of Homeland Security must determine the number of Z visa holders who are eligible for legal permanent residence and grant LPR status to all such persons over the following five years at a rate of 20 percent per year.[9]

During this process, Z visa holders would be granted their own special "supplemental allocation" of green cards and would not be required to compete with other visa seekers.[10] In the 13th year after enactment, the Secretary must provide an additional allotment of green cards to Z visa holders who are qualified for Z visa status.

Stage Four: Expanded Eligibility for Government Benefits. During the initial years an immigrant is in LPR status, access to government welfare programs may be limited; however, after five years in LPR status, individuals become eligible for nearly all welfare programs. Legal permanent residents may also apply for U.S. citizenship at this point.

Eligibility for Government Benefits

The following outlines eligibility for government benefits at each stage of the amnesty process. In each case in the following text, eligibility for a benefit means that the former illegal immigrant or his family member obtains the same eligibility for that program as a U.S. citizen would have; that is, he will receive the benefits if income limits and other normal eligibility standards applying to U.S. citizens are met.

Probationary and Permanent Z Visa Status. All children born within U.S. borders to illegal immigrants, Z visa holders, or legal permanent residents are automatically U.S. citizens. As such, these children are potentially eligible for all U.S. welfare benefits from the moment of birth through the rest of their lives. All children of Z visa holders (both foreign- and native-born) have the right to attend U.S. public schools and to receive Head Start and daycare assistance.[11] In addition, adult Z visa holders and their foreign-born children will be eligible for medical care under the Medicaid Disproportionate Share Program.

All individuals placed in probationary Z visa status will be given lawful Social Security numbers,[12] which makes the Z visa holder immediately eligible for two refundable tax credits: the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and the Additional Child Tax Credit (ACTC). These credits provide cash welfare assistance to low-income parents. Upon receipt of a lawful Social Security number, Z visa holders will also be granted the right to earn entitlement to future Social Security and Medicare benefits. After 10 years of employment, they will become fully eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits, although in most cases the benefits will not commence until the individual reaches age 67.

Legal Permanent Residence. Upon obtaining LPR status, the non-citizen children of former Z visa holders will become eligible for Food Stamp benefits.[13] All legal permanent residents who have a 10-year work history in the U.S. are automatically eligible for Food Stamps, Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), and other welfare programs.[14] Many legal residents without a work history are eligible for Medicaid in 22 states, including California and New York.[15] Irrespective of employment history, amnesty recipients will become eligible for 60 different federal welfare programs five years after receiving legal permanent residence.

Citizenship. After obtaining citizenship, individuals become eligible for Supplemental Security Income, a means-tested cash aid program for disabled and elderly persons.

To summarize this process, all Z visa holders will be eligible for medical care benefits under the Medicaid Disproportionate Share Program. Foreign-born children of Z visa holders will be eligible to attend public schools and receive Head Start and daycare assistance. Children born inside the U.S. to illegal immigrant parents and Z visa holders will be eligible for public schooling and all means-tested welfare programs. Many state and local governments may also provide benefits and services to Z visa holders.

Upon obtaining a probationary Z visa, amnesty applicants will receive a lawful Social Security number, which makes Z visa holders potentially eligible for the EITC and the ACTC. In addition, they will begin to earn entitlement to Social Security and Medicare benefits. Roughly eight years after enactment, amnesty recipients will begin to enter LPR status and non-citizen children will become eligible for Food Stamps. Legal permanent residents with a 10-year work history in the U.S. will be eligible for most federal welfare programs subject to income limits and other admission criteria. No later than five years after receiving LPR status, amnesty recipients will be eligible for nearly all means-tested welfare programs.

The initial limitation on receipt of means-tested welfare will have only a small effect on governmental costs. Welfare is only part of the benefits received by immigrant families. Moreover, the average adult amnesty recipient can be expected to live more than 50 years after receiving his Z visa. While recipients' eligibility for means-tested welfare will be constrained for the first 10 to 15 years, they will be fully eligible for welfare during the last 30 to 40 years of their lives. Use of welfare during these years is likely to be heavy.[16]

In addition, if S. 1348 is enacted, many state and local governments are likely to begin giving benefits and services to Z visa holders that are greater than those currently provided to illegal immigrants. State governors of both parties will pressure Congress to relax the eligibility restrictions barring Z visa holders from receiving most federal means-tested benefits as a way of relieving fiscal pressure on state and local governments. In the present political climate, these efforts are likely to prove successful.

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The Net Retirement Costs of Amnesty

Giving amnesty to illegal immigrants will greatly increase long-term costs to the taxpayer. Granting amnesty to illegal immigrants would, over time, increase their use of means-tested welfare, Social Security, and Medicare. Fiscal costs would rise in the intermediate term and increase dramatically when amnesty recipients reach retirement. Although it is difficult to provide a precise estimate, it seems likely that if 10 million adult illegal immigrants currently in the U.S. were granted amnesty, the net retirement cost to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.6 trillion.

The calculation of this figure is as follows. As noted above, in 2007 there were, by the most commonly used estimates, roughly 10 million adult illegal immigrants in the U.S. Most illegal immigrants are low-skilled. On average, each elderly low-skill immigrant imposes a net cost (benefits minus taxes) on the taxpayers of about $17,000 per year. The major elements of this cost are Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits. (The figure includes federal state and local government costs.) If the government gave amnesty to 10 million adult illegal immigrants, most of them would eventually become eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits or Supplemental Security Income and Medicaid benefits.

However, not all of the 10 million adults given amnesty would survive until retirement at age 67. Normal mortality rates would reduce the population by roughly 15 percent before age 67. That would mean 8.5 million individuals would reach age 67 and enter retirement.

Of those reaching 67, their average remaining life expectancy would be around 18 years.[17] The net cost to taxpayers of these elderly individuals would be around $17,000 per year.[18] Over 18 years, the cost would equal $306,000 per elderly amnesty recipient. A cost of $306,000 per amnesty recipient multiplied by 8.5 million amnesty recipients results in a total net cost of $2.6 trillion.

These costs would not occur immediately. The average adult illegal immigrant is now in his early thirties; thus, it will be 25 to 30 years before the bulk of amnesty recipients reaches retirement. At their peak level, it appears the amnesty recipients will expand the number of beneficiaries under Social Security by 5 to 10 percent. This will occur at a point when Social Security will already be running deficits of over $200 billion annually.

This is a rough estimate. More research should be performed, but policymakers should examine these potential costs very carefully before rushing to grant amnesty, "Z visas," or "earned citizenship" to the current illegal immigrant population.

Factors That Could Increase Future Costs

The $2.6 trillion figure is a rough estimate of future costs that would result from putting 10 million adult illegal immigrants on a guaranteed pathway to citizenship. There are a number of factors that could raise or lower these future costs. Among the factors that could increase the net cost (benefits received minus taxes paid) well above $2.6 trillion are the following:

1. The actual number of illegal immigrants may be greater than 12 million. The estimated cost of $2.6 trillion in future retirement costs outlined above assumes that the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. in 2007 was around 12 million, based on data from the Pew Hispanic Center. While the Pew Hispanic Center is the most widely used source for demographic information about illegal immigrants, its data assume that some 90 percent of illegal immigrants appear in the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey (CPS).[19] It is possible that many illegal immigrants do not appear in the CPS and that the total number of illegal immigrants is substantially higher than 12 million. Some estimates place the number of illegal immigrants as high as 20 million. Clearly, if the illegal immigrant population is greater than 12 million, then the net retirement costs resulting from amnesty would be, ceteris paribus, higher as well.

2. There is a huge potential for amnesty fraud. In order to receive amnesty and a Z visa and be put on a pathway to citizenship, an illegal immigrant must demonstrate that he or she was in the U.S. illegally and employed on January 1, 2007. However, the standard to demonstrate residence is very loose. The illegal immigrant need merely produce two affidavits from non-relatives asserting that he or she was working in the U.S. on the appropriate date. The affidavits could even come from other illegal immigrants. It is doubtful that the Department of Homeland Security has any real capacity to separate true affidavits from bogus ones, especially in the crush of processing millions of applications in the space of a year or two. Consequently, the potential for amnesty based on fraudulent documents is very high. In the 1986 amnesty, an estimated 25 percent of the amnesties granted were fraudulent.[20] In the last 20 years, the underground industry producing fraudulent documents has grown vastly larger and more sophisticated. In this round of amnesty, the fraud rate could be as high as or higher than in 1986, resulting in millions of additional amnesties.

3. Spouses and children living abroad may be added to the amnesty population. In its present form, the bill grants amnesty to employed illegal immigrants who were in the U.S. on January 1, 2007. Any spouses, children, and parents of employed illegal immigrants who were residing in the U.S. on that date will also receive Z visas and amnesty. However, many illegal immigrants have spouses and children living abroad; under S. 1348, while illegal immigrants and their families inside the U.S. are put on a path to citizenship, families living abroad are not. Family members living abroad would be denied Z visas and would not be permitted to reside in the U.S. for the foreseeable future. Presumably, the Z visa holder could have his family join him when he achieves legal permanent residence, but this would not occur until eight years after he is initially given the Z visa.

The designers of the bill appear to have excluded spouses and children living abroad from eligibility for Z visas in order to lower the apparent number of amnesty recipients, but pressure will build to eliminate this exclusion. At some point, either before or after the bill's passage, a "technical correction" will almost certainly be introduced allowing spouses and children living abroad to obtain Z visas and get on the pathway to citizenship. For every 10 illegal immigrants living in the U.S., there may be four dependents living abroad; if the current illegal population is 12 million, the number of additional dependents who could be brought permanently into the country should the exclusion be eliminated may be as high as five million.[21] The overall number of amnesty recipients and dependents could easily reach 17 million.

4. Medicaid and Medicare costs are likely to rise faster than the rate of general inflation. To project the future governmental costs of amnesty recipients during retirement, this paper has used the current net governmental costs for elderly immigrants with skill levels similar to the amnesty population. These net governmental costs amount to $17,000 per person per year in 2004; half of this cost was medical care expenditures under the Medicare and Medicaid programs. The cost of government Medicaid and Medicare benefits has tended to escalate rapidly both because medical cost inflation has been greater than the general rate of inflation in the economy and because the range of medical services provided by these programs has expanded. The cost of Medicare and Medicaid services is likely to continue to increase more rapidly than inflation for the foreseeable future. As a consequence, the actual retirement costs for amnesty recipients will almost certainly be greater than $2.6 trillion, even after adjusting for general inflation.

[dartgirl]

It didn't sound to bad at first. I thought having to be able to speak english was a plus, but then you started talking about being able to receive government aid and thats when the program began to stink. I'm sorry but I'm really tired of supporting everybody elses kids. If you don't have any money why in the hell are you reproducing????? I realize that they are here for alot of reasons and there are alot of jobs that wouldn't get done without them....but.....there has to be a better way!!!

[Cotties]

Not being from the U.S but watching U.S news channels for some years now. I do find it strange that many Americans think jobs won't get donne without illegal immigration. Being from Australia which is a country without much illegal immigration I can tell you jobs still get done.It didn't sound to bad at first. I thought having to be able to speak english was a plus, but then you started talking about being able to receive government aid and thats when the program began to stink. I'm sorry but I'm really tired of supporting everybody elses kids. If you don't have any money why in the hell are you reproducing????? I realize that they are here for alot of reasons and there are alot of jobs that wouldn't get done without them....but.....there has to be a better way!!!

[dartgirl]

Speaking for me personally, I can't imagine going out in a field and picking crops day after day. I think most americans find the thought of doing that work as demeaning. But then again welfare is to easy to get. Why work when you can get the government to support you. My grandparents worked in the fields to support their family because there was no welfare back in the day, my dad and his sister in a buggy beside them. You won't find as many people today that would do that. Our society has become way to lazy.

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Speaking for me personally, I can't imagine going out in a field and picking crops day after day. I think most americans find the thought of doing that work as demeaning. But then again welfare is to easy to get. Why work when you can get the government to support you. My grandparents worked in the fields to support their family because there was no welfare back in the day, my dad and his sister in a buggy beside them. You won't find as many people today that would do that. Our society has become way to lazy.

I think it is more accurate to say that I wouldn't pick crops for the wages they are paying -- make it worth my while and I will shovel manure -- with my hands!

But you're right -- why should I work at all, when I know that the government will take care of me?

[Annie]

Mexico's Immigration Law:

Let's Try It Here at Home (http://www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com/waller5-8-06.html#top) By J. Michael Waller, Citizens for a Constitutional Republic (http://www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com/)

Mexico has a radical idea for a rational immigration policy (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm#) that most Americans would love. However, Mexican officials haven't been sharing that idea with us as they press for our Congress to adopt the McCain-Kennedy immigration reform bill.

That's too bad, because Mexico, which annually deports more illegal aliens than the United States does, has much to teach us about how it handles the immigration issue. Under Mexican law, it is a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

At a time when the Supreme Court and many politicians seek to bring American law in line with foreign legal norms, it's noteworthy that nobody has argued that the U.S. look at how Mexico deals with immigration and what it might teach us about how best to solve our illegal immigration problem. Mexico has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

in the country legally;

have the means to sustain themselves economically;

not destined to be burdens on society;

of economic and social benefit to society;

of good character and have no criminal records; and

contributors to the general well-being of the nation.

The law also ensures that:

immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;

foreign visitors do not violate their visa (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm#) status;

foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;

foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;

foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;

those who aid (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm#) in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.

Who could disagree with such a law? It makes perfect sense. The Mexican constitution strictly defines the rights of citizens -- and the denial of many fundamental rights to non-citizens, illegal and illegal. Under the constitution, the Ley General de Poblacion, or General Law on Population, spells out specifically the country's immigration policy.

It is an interesting law -- and one that should cause us all to ask, Why is our great southern neighbor pushing us to water down our own immigration laws and policies, when its own immigration restrictions are the toughest on the continent? If a felony is a crime punishable by more than one year in prison, then Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.

If the United States adopted such statutes, Mexico no doubt would denounce it as a manifestation of American racism and bigotry.

We looked at the immigration provisions of the Mexican constitution. [1] Now let's look at Mexico's main immigration law.

Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)

Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)

Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)

Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)

Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm#)" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

Shipping and airline companies (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm#) that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

All of the above runs contrary to what Mexican leaders are demanding of the United States. The stark contrast between Mexico's immigration practices versus its American immigration preachings is telling. It gives a clear picture of the Mexican government's agenda: to have a one-way immigration relationship with the United States.

Let's call Mexico's bluff on its unwarranted interference in U.S. immigration policy. Let's propose, just to make a point, that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) member nations standardize their immigration laws by using Mexico's own law as a model.

John W. Lillpop (http://www.canadafreepress.com/writers/john-lillpop.htm) is a recovering liberal, "clean and sober" since 1992 when last he voted for a Democrat. Pray for John: He lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, where people like Nancy Pelosi are actually considered normal!.

[Shiane]

Wow that is a lot of information to take in. The US has no idea how many illegals are actually in this country and when you start talking about the money that it will take to support these folks, it just astounds me. If we give amnesty to 20 million, how many family members will be allowed in to hold out their hands for government assistance programs. Hells bells, as a citizen I don't get any of these hands outs and I certainly am not in favor of giving them to illegals. I think the whole amnesty bill is complete and utter BULLSHIT!

It sounds like the vast majority of them will be on medicaid, well being in the health care profession I know how little medicaid reimbursment is and this will only drive up our cost of healthcare. Just a side note, has any of you seen all of the labor and delivery units in the East that have closed their doors? The reimbursement from medicaid is so little that the docs don't get paid enough to pay for their malpractice insurance. The docs are leaving and the hospitals are closing their baby units. Medicaid isn't insurance, it is a government funded program that gives hospitals and clinics a fraction of bill so that the hospitals provide care at rock bottom prices. So guess who gets to make up the difference? You got it, you and me! Now you know why an asprin cost 7 bucks and your insurance premiums are sky high. I call it Robin Hood Syndrome, we are taking from the working class to support those who sit on their ass and take all the hand outs. Yep, complete and utter Bullshit!

Amnesty? We don't need to give them amnesty. We need to get control and get an accurate head count of those who are in this country illegally. We need to ship every single one of their asses back to wherever in the hell they came from and start all over. Number one if you are not a citizen you will receive NO government benefits. Two, you must apply for a work visa, you must pass a background check, YOU MUST SPEAK PROFICIENT ENGLISH. You must be able to purchase health and provide proof that you have it. If you are going to drive a car, you must carry insurance and you must have a valid drivers license. You will be required to maintain your vehicle just like everyone else, tag, tax, title etc. If you do not, your visa will be revolked and you will be returned home. You will pay taxes just like everyone else, if you don't like it go home, we aren't here to win a popularity contest we are here to protect our citizens. You must register with the local police, giving DNA samples and finger prints. If you are convicted of a crime, you will be immediately returned home, we will not pay to house you in our criminal systems. Every illegal will be given an registration number, that number will be on your drivers licence, your insurance card, your visa, and your tax ID. If you share this number with another illegal, your visa will be revolked and you will be returned home. With a work visa you may stay in the US for a grand total of 12 years, after that your visa will not be reissued and you will be escorted to the nearest airport where you will purchase your own transportation home. Your work visa is only good for 1 year, each year you must provide documentation of your compliance with our rules, and only then will it be renewed. You must sign an agreement in order to receive a work visa and it will simply state. If you decide to have a child in this country with another illegal that said child will not become a US citizen, they will an illegal also, you will not receive any child care benefits nor will the child. If that said child attends school they will attend regular classes just like our children. No special language classes will be provided. If you have a child with a US citizen you will not be given citizenship. That said individual will retain custody of the child, however you will be allowed visitation at your own expense. If you fail to leave the country after a said visit, you will never be allowed to return.

If you violate any of the above rules and regulations you will be returned home and will never qualify for another work visa.

Yeah I know, not realistic and too harsh! Well not in my mind! I do not want to see this country's economic system continued to be sucked dry by non-citizens. I do not want to support any non citizen with my tax dollars. Selfish, yeppers because this is MY COUNTRY, if you don't like the terms of the agreement, stay your ass home!

[dartgirl]

Shiane you really should run for political office. You have some great ideas!!!!

[Annie]

Amnesty? We don't need to give them amnesty. We need to get control and get an accurate head count of those who are in this country illegally. We need to ship every single one of their asses back to wherever in the hell they came from and start all over. Number one if you are not a citizen you will receive NO government benefits. Two, you must apply for a work visa, you must pass a background check, YOU MUST SPEAK PROFICIENT ENGLISH. You must be able to purchase health and provide proof that you have it. If you are going to drive a car, you must carry insurance and you must have a valid drivers license. You will be required to maintain your vehicle just like everyone else, tag, tax, title etc. If you do not, your visa will be revolked and you will be returned home. You will pay taxes just like everyone else, if you don't like it go home, we aren't here to win a popularity contest we are here to protect our citizens. You must register with the local police, giving DNA samples and finger prints. If you are convicted of a crime, you will be immediately returned home, we will not pay to house you in our criminal systems. Every illegal will be given an registration number, that number will be on your drivers licence, your insurance card, your visa, and your tax ID. If you share this number with another illegal, your visa will be revolked and you will be returned home. With a work visa you may stay in the US for a grand total of 12 years, after that your visa will not be reissued and you will be escorted to the nearest airport where you will purchase your own transportation home. Your work visa is only good for 1 year, each year you must provide documentation of your compliance with our rules, and only then will it be renewed. You must sign an agreement in order to receive a work visa and it will simply state. If you decide to have a child in this country with another illegal that said child will not become a US citizen, they will an illegal also, you will not receive any child care benefits nor will the child. If that said child attends school they will attend regular classes just like our children. No special language classes will be provided. If you have a child with a US citizen you will not be given citizenship. That said individual will retain custody of the child, however you will be allowed visitation at your own expense. If you fail to leave the country after a said visit, you will never be allowed to return.

If you violate any of the above rules and regulations you will be returned home and will never qualify for another work visa.

Yeah I know, not realistic and too harsh! Well not in my mind! I do not want to see this country's economic system continued to be sucked dry by non-citizens. I do not want to support any non citizen with my tax dollars. Selfish, yeppers because this is MY COUNTRY, if you don't like the terms of the agreement, stay your ass home!Shiane, I don't understand why under a law that you would agree to, you are even allowing illegals to stay at all! I think if you don't follow the law and enter legally you should get your ass shipped home, no question about it!!

[Shiane]

Shiane, I don't understand why under a law that you would agree to, you are even allowing illegals to stay at all! I think if you don't follow the law and enter legally you should get your ass shipped home, no question about it!!


I whole heartedly agree with you Annie! But, you have to think about it like this. Having foreigners work in this country is and will always be allowed, that is just the way it is. I think our biggest problem are the illegal ones, and every single one of them should be shipped home. We need a system that will boost our economy, boost our social security benefits, boost our medicare and medicaid for our own citizens. If we are going to allow foreigners to work here, we need to make damn sure we benefit from it. We have been so inundated with the poor illegals that they are what we think of. Those are the ones we as a country are tired of supporting.

It's pretty simple Annie. A lot of the people who come here do not want to be a citizen, they want to reap the economic benefits, live the American dream and then return to their home country to live high on the hog. During their time here they receive the same benefits we give our own citizens and that is what I do NOT agree with. I don't see the work visa and citizenship as the same thing.

If you want to be a US citizen, then by all means apply for citizenship. But I do not agree with handing out amnesty to a bunch of people who are in this country illegally. They didn't follow the rules in the first place, so why expect them to do it now!

I am not against allowing people from other countries to come here and become citizens, but there has to be some kind of freakin system that works. You posted a lot of things about how Mexico handles things. It makes you wonder why they are so against anything that forces their citizens to stay out of the US. Well think about it, illegals can come here and work for countless years making a decent living and then return to Mexico with more money in their pocket than they would ever earn in Mexico. It boost their economy, but is destroying ours. They have received healthcare, education, living assistance at our expense, not the Mexican government's.
So many of the people who work here illegally send a portion of their earnings back to Mexico this too improves Mexico's economy. What government wouldn't want another country to foot the bill for these things?

The USA will always allow foreigners to come here to work, and I don't think that will ever change. My thoughts are that we need to continue to allow it but we need to monitor it much more closely. We should set a number and only allow that many in this country to work. We need to monitor and enforce this with an iron fist. We need force them to pay taxes, social security and medicare just like everyone else and that will boost our economy and long term benefits. It's like this, you can work here but you will contribute to our economy in return for the priviledge of working here. We will hand pick those foreigners who will contribute and abide by the rules.

It is plain and simple, at least in my eyes. The current system does not work! We are allowing foreigners to reap the benefits and the only thing it is doing is sucking our country dry.

Mexico has the right idea, if we adopted their policy we wouldn't have the bullshit we have now.

[Shiane]

Shiane you really should run for political office. You have some great ideas!!!!

LOL well thanks, but I'de probably end up being assignated or tarred and feathered by the bible thumpers! ;)

But, hell fire I don't think I would do any worse than the officials we have now!:whee:

[jake8675]

Its really something, Shiane I think you have it pretty darn close here.. But what drives me crazy is how simple it is, you have a set of laws in place, you follow them or you go home "for good". In this day with all the threat of terrorism it seems like every man/woman/republican/democrat/black/white/blue or purple should want control of or borders and documentation of who is crossing them for whatever reason. I think the only reason we have not been hit big by something really bad is the fact these so called cell groups get over here and find out this is pretty damn nice place to live, and for most it's pretty easy to make a living if you care to work. Thats likely why most of our terrorism is domestic. I'm tired of the whole thing being political, we hire and pay border control, INS, police, homeland security, etc. to do a job, so just inforce the laws we have. But as an employer of about 45 people myself, it is pretty easy to have a prospective employee provide identification, a visa or worker card, and properly fill out an I-9. The government should hold the people who hire these illegals completely accountable, because they are just trying to get cheap help and evade taxes themself.

[Shiane]

Its really something, Shiane I think you have it pretty darn close here.. But what drives me crazy is how simple it is, you have a set of laws in place, you follow them or you go home "for good". In this day with all the threat of terrorism it seems like every man/woman/republican/democrat/black/white/blue or purple should want control of or borders and documentation of who is crossing them for whatever reason. I think the only reason we have not been hit big by something really bad is the fact these so called cell groups get over here and find out this is pretty damn nice place to live, and for most it's pretty easy to make a living if you care to work. Thats likely why most of our terrorism is domestic. I'm tired of the whole thing being political, we hire and pay border control, INS, police, homeland security, etc. to do a job, so just inforce the laws we have. But as an employer of about 45 people myself, it is pretty easy to have a prospective employee provide identification, a visa or worker card, and properly fill out an I-9. The government should hold the people who hire these illegals completely accountable, because they are just trying to get cheap help and evade taxes themself.

See I agree with you so much! We have laws in place but they aren't working so we have to ask ourselves why! If US companies didn't hire them they wouldn't be able to make a living here and they would have no choice but to return home or turn into a criminal and prey on our citizens. I honestly think that if EVERY single US employer would stop hiring illegals a lot of the problems we currently have would be greatly minimized. Currently there is too much of a financial gain for employers to stop using illegal employees. We have to make it as such that it hits them hard financially that they have no choice but to comply. Fines so large that they are forced to stop using illegals. If that doesn't stop them then their company is shut down, the government freezes all their assets and operations. Trust me if this happened the illegals would have the rio grand parted faster than Moses trying to get their asses back home.

[tt]

A man from the Middle East with dark skin and black hair, who does not speak English and has Millions of Followers is stopped at the U.S. border and the pubic cheers. He says he has "Come to save the world." He has been known to travel with only a select men and one woman. He has no real permenant home and lives as a homeless man or in caves.

The only problem, his name is Jesus.

[Shiane]

A man from the Middle East with dark skin and black hair, who does not speak English and has Millions of Followers is stopped at the U.S. border and the pubic cheers. He says he has "Come to save the world." He has been known to travel with only a select men and one woman. He has no real permenant home and lives as a homeless man or in caves.

The only problem, his name is Jesus.



Is that Jesus or Hay-Soose? :sc

[spare_change]

A man from the Middle East with dark skin and black hair, who does not speak English and has Millions of Followers is stopped at the U.S. border and the public cheers. He says he has "Come to save the world." He has been known to travel with only a select men and one woman. He has no real permanent home and lives as a homeless man or in caves.

The only problem, his name is Usama.

[Shiane]

The only problem, his name is Usama.

:whee: You got that right!

[tt]

Is that Jesus or Hay-Soose? :sc

Another racist heard from.

[Shiane]

Another racist heard from.

Racist? You're barkin up the wrong tree.

Shall I will remind you that there is a code of conduct.

3) Respect is both required and demanded. Members will be gentlemen and ladies first, last, and always. All members will be respectful and civil to all other members. Discussions may happen – arguments may not.
http://www.marriedandflirtingchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1292

[spare_change]

Another racist heard from.


Traveler -- you are WAY, WAY out of line.

Normally, we would just delete your post, and send you a polite note, but you have been chastised several times for calling members names. Consider this a public condemnation of your actions.

The practice must stop -- or else.

[Kissie]

I work for the Dept of Labor...had a gentleman come in today that was totally pissed that he was denied benifits...

He came in to have someone in the office read him is letter of denial...he is unable to read it because he is unable to speak or read english...
Then he copped an attitude because he was denied benifits because he does not have a green card...
The gentleman is disabled...I will give him that much...but sorry for him...time for him to go back to HIS country and get supported...so please let it be known...that they all do not fall between the cracks!!!!!

[snowflake]

:spbx: This subject is very close to my heart.... We live within 60 miles of the Mexico border. The illegal crossing is a constant headache, fences get cut, camp fires start grass fires, our homes get broke into for food, shoes, and whatever else they want. We have had illegal's steal ranch trucks to get further down the highway... Border Patrol is more common here than a sheriff deputy... The illegals are not crossing anymore looking for labor jobs, 8 out 10 are wearing all black carrying a bean sack transporting drugs. These kids are not friendly or nice, and they don't pretend to be your friend. They have gone as far as to hide in our hunting cabin and try to shoot a guy with a compound bow because they didn't want to be transported back to Mexico.. I could go on forever on this subject, it is a pet peeve (another thread)... Our border patrol are tired, and the support lacks... Need a new plan because the current one down here isn't working...That is the overall view in West & South Texas, I think we would be a tad bit more sympathetic if they did want to work here, but drugs is the main source of crossing here....

[cherokeered]

Ok...here is the truth of the matter....the US does not have streets paved in gold...we are not the land of opportunity....we are a country wracked in turmoil...divided by conscience and most of all...unable to afford ourselves as well as everyone else....

The days of bring us your hungry & poor...your huddled masses....is over and has been for a long time...
Now before ya go jumping on me...my grandmother came over from Poland in a boat...legally....she raised 5 kids while my grandfather...who was born here....worked for an insurance company....
I do not begrudge people the need to improve their lives...but ya need to do it in ur own home...make changes in ur own country...like we did...
Now, if it sounds racist or mean...it isnt meant to...it's just that we cannot provide for people who are not willing to work within the system...who bring drugs into this country...cannot learn the language...and who send their money back home......but expect us to support them and pay for them when we ourselves are barely getting by...
I can understand them wanting to come here...but we cannot afford them...we can't even afford ourselves....

[ldon]

Immigration is certainly an important issue that needs to be resolved. This nation was started by immigrants-or actually invaded by immigrants back when it belonged to the native -american people. Funny how things come around to bite us in the ass.

The only problem with resolving this issue is that it is in the hands of people who don't know how to effectively run a government for the good of the people. For the good of big business, pharmacuticals, special interest, lobbiests, oil companies yes. But not for common people. But these common people elect the same privilaged few every four years based on what, either democratic or republican preference? We need to figure out how to get the right leaders in office. Do other free world countries have the same issues that plague us? I don't know, but I think not. I wonder what condition our country would be in should should it invest 2 Billion dollars a week in health care instead of Iraq? Why are we even paying for their support in Iraq? I thought they were a world producer of oil. We should be charging them.

[tt]

A man from the Middle East with dark skin and black hair, who does not speak English and has Millions of Followers is stopped at the U.S. border and the public cheers. He says he has "Come to save the world." He has been known to travel with only a select men and one woman. He has no real permanent home and lives as a homeless man or in caves.

The only problem, his name is Usama.

And if The Shrub had been more interested in catching Bin Laden than invading Iraq, the guy would be in prison right now.

[millenite]

I'll bet that if we, the USA, stopped all free healthcare, all food stamps, and all tanniff subsidies, especially for people of ages 18-60, that are capable of working but won't, then we would not have an immigration problem.

[Lena]

Traveler, Can you please stop your impolite posts!!!?
You don't know for sure what nationality a person is in here!
For all you know Spare or anyone of us could be anyone of those people you are talking about! We don't even know for sure what religion any of us follows!
All this should be about are opinions of the situation of the topic not attacks on each other!!
So please be respectful to each other as our rules states! Thank you!

P.S your post has been taken away due to the fact that it is very rude and not appropriate for here!

[spare_change]

I'll bet that if we, the USA, stopped all free healthcare, all food stamps, and all tanniff subsidies, especially for people of ages 18-60, that are capable of working but won't, then we would not have an immigration problem.


I think you're absolutely right.

[snowflake]

I'll bet that if we, the USA, stopped all free healthcare, all food stamps, and all tanniff subsidies, especially for people of ages 18-60, that are capable of working but won't, then we would not have an immigration problem.

:D Are you running for president, you may just get some votes!!!!

[GeekMaster]

:spbx: This subject is very close to my heart.... We live within 60 miles of the Mexico border. The illegal crossing is a constant headache...

...but drugs is the main source of crossing here....

Snowflake, you are stating facts that the majority of people refuse to acknowledge or consider.

It is also a shame, that many of the "soft hearted and weak minded" people who are vocal about this would consider your comments "racially motivated."


I agree with your position 100%:55

[PlayfulMale69]

I don't have a lot of problem with immigration if it is dealt with fairly and by the rules. The big problem here in Texas as in other border states is the amount of illegal aleins. I know there are migrant workers that do a lot of work and I don't mind them making money here.

But what I have a huge problem with is everyone telling me the non-citizens should have the same rights as a citizen.

Like Snow said, we have a huge problem with the drug traffic coming across that border as well.

Don't hear me saying that I don't want immigration. Our country was built on immigration. It must be done within the rules and I know the rules and the system can deny some access unfairly, but we have to use the rules for everyone.

I am rambling now, I will stop.

[ldon]

Seems simple enough, can you provide a service in this country? If you can, here is your Green card. Oh, by the way , you need to pay taxes. And if your employer doesn't provide heath care, you will need to cover yourself. But how does a medical facility turn away a sick or injured person? I'm not sure there is an answer.

[PlayfulMale69]

Seems simple enough, can you provide a service in this country? If you can, here is your Green card. Oh, by the way , you need to pay taxes. And if your employer doesn't provide heath care, you will need to cover yourself. But how does a medical facility turn away a sick or injured person? I'm not sure there is an answer.

I don't think we should turn our backs on someone who is legally here as a visiting worker (green card). There are good samaritan laws that require those of us who know how to render aid must do so. Of course those laws are to prevent the getting sued for not saving a loved one. Anyway, we should render aid to those in medical aid, but they don't get rights as a citizen would

You bring up the dilema correctly. It is not an easy answer to be sure. That is why we should have some guidlines and stick with them for how many we let in so we don't overburden the infrastructure.

[Shiane]

Anyway, we should render aid to those in medical aid, but they don't get rights as a citizen would

OK heres the deal. If you have even been to an Emergency Room you will notice a sign typically in English AND Spanish that states that no one is turned away even if they don't have the ability to pay for the medical services rendered. I don't disagree with this, if you really and truly need emergent medical care then it should be provided regardless of the ability to pay.

Now being in the health care field I can tell you that this system is SO farked up. Not just by illegals but also our citizens who refuse to work and live off of Welfare. When someone comes to the ER they have to be treated, and stablized. The problem is that across our country our ER's have become clinics for people who will not go to the Dr's office because some/all payment is required up front. They come to the ER for crap that should be treated at a Dr's office, because it is not a medical emergency. That is why there is such a long wait at our ER's. Then they gripe to high heaven because they have to wait. Well it is an EMERGENCY room, if it isn't an emergency you will have to wait. They give ficticous names, addresses,phone numbers and social security numbers and guess what the hospital has no way of tracking these people down for payment. It is money lost, money that you and I and our insurance carriers make up for. They say I didn't bring any identification, they can't be turned away so the hospital gets screwed every day and many times a day. It is tough to make up for those losses.

What I would love to see is an adjoining Urgent care center next door to the ER. If it is not an emergency you are sent to the urgent care center and are required to have identification and some type of payment. I really think this would cut down on the amount of unnecessary visits. The medical system is abused badly and it definitely needs to change.

[Shadows]

Hello Shiane we too work in a hospital so we know what goes on, Our NHS system is falling to bits because of immigrants coming here for treatment then flying home, yet they got no money. Our set up annoys my husband and I, we have seen old ladies laying on stretchers and others being treated, thats all want want to add

[tt]

I prefer to to confront racism, not to run from it. The only way to end racism is by standing up it, and shaming those who think because a persons religion, race, gender, gender preferance or place of birth that another person is less human. That kind of thinking is just plain wrong. Calling a racist a racist is not wrong, it is necessary.


I was born in the "Cotton South." and know of where I speak. If you want to turn your head, close your eyes and shut your ears, that is up to you, but I will not for one second tolerate racism, sexism, anti-semitism in any form, against any person.

You want to end the immigration problem, deal the fact that millions and millions of dollars are made off the sweat and labor of un-documented workers. Impose heavy fines and jail sentences to Employers of such workers. I would start with a One Thouand Dollar ($1,000.00) fine and One (01) year in jail for the employer, based on how many illegals that empolyer has working him/her. For un-documented worker found at the job site, add another another year, and another One Thousand Dollars. It would add up fast. Take the incentive for hiring people away, fine the employers, then start returning people to their country of orgin. The fines imposed would for pay for the return trip.

Instead of a "Minimum Wage." there should be a "Living Wage." Pay people a salary that keeps their children fed, a roof over their head and lends dignity to their life.

End the "Out Sourcing" of good paying jobs to other countries. Fine any U.S. Company Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) for each job sent overseas, that a well trained and well educated U.S. citizen could fill .

Do your own damn yard work.

Wash your own damn car.

Clean your own damn house.

[cherokeered]

I prefer to to confront racism, not to run from it. The only way to end racism is by standing up it, and shaming those who think because a persons religion, race, gender, gender preferance or place of birth that another person is less human. That kind of thinking is just plain wrong. Calling a racist a racist is not wrong, it is necessary.


I was born in the "Cotton South." and know of where I speak. If you want to turn your head, close your eyes and shut your ears, that is up to you, but I will not for one second tolerate racism, sexism, anti-semitism in any form, against any person.

You want to end the immigration problem, deal the fact that millions and millions of dollars are made off the sweat and labor of un-documented workers. Impose heavy fines and jail sentences to Employers of such workers. I would start with a One Thouand Dollar ($1,000.00) fine and One (01) year in jail for the employer, based on how many illegals that empolyer has working him/her. For un-documented worker found at the job site, add another another year, and another One Thousand Dollars. It would add up fast. Take the incentive for hiring people away, fine the employers, then start returning people to their country of orgin. The fines imposed would for pay for the return trip.

Instead of a "Minimum Wage." there should be a "Living Wage." Pay people a salary that keeps their children fed, a roof over their head and lends dignity to their life.

End the "Out Sourcing" of good paying jobs to other countries. Fine any U.S. Company Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) for each job sent overseas, that a well trained and well educated U.S. citizen could fill .

Do your own damn yard work.

Wash your own damn car.

Clean your own damn house.


I do my own yard work....wash my own car....and clean my own house...so don't u come preaching here like someone who is better than any of us with a smug little attitude that lends itself to the small-minded....
I would suggest that in the future you do not attempt to lump everyone in one category or assume to know anything about anyone of us or anyone for that matter because you have...........

Not taken the time to get to know us
shown any interest in getting to know us
you have not been here long enough to form any assumptions about me or anyone else......
Just for the record here...Spare and I often face off on subjects...we enjoy it and we do respect each others opinions...and we do not resort to childish name calling...I have read your posts....I have kept my mouth closed until now...I find this insulting to me
Regarding your other comments....why dont you try sticking to one subject...the one this thread was intended to address instead of responding with diversions because you can't back-up what you say.......

Now this is my opinion....:nu

[spare_change]

I prefer to to confront racism, not to run from it. The only way to end racism is by standing up it, and shaming those who think because a persons religion, race, gender, gender preferance or place of birth that another person is less human. That kind of thinking is just plain wrong. Calling a racist a racist is not wrong, it is necessary.

Of course -- However, because someone sees an issue differently than you does not make him a racist - it just might make him a realist. Just because an issue may have racial elements, one cannot automatically assume that race is the deciding factor. Frankly, it is too convenient to drag out the racist epithets than it is to actually try to solve the problem.

However, I can safely say, with a modicum of certainty, that name calling and hate spewing rhetoric IS unacceptable on this site, and will not be tolerated, no matter how holy you might view your cause.

I was born in the "Cotton South." and know of where I speak. If you want to turn your head, close your eyes and shut your ears, that is up to you, but I will not for one second tolerate racism, sexism, anti-semitism in any form, against any person.

Well, I, for one, am certainly impressed -- but then, I suspect this pontification is more wind than substance. I, too, was born in the South -- I can assure you that gives you no special insight, nor does it give you special privilege.

You want to end the immigration problem, deal the fact that millions and millions of dollars are made off the sweat and labor of un-documented workers. Impose heavy fines and jail sentences to Employers of such workers. I would start with a One Thouand Dollar ($1,000.00) fine and One (01) year in jail for the employer, based on how many illegals that empolyer has working him/her. For un-documented worker found at the job site, add another another year, and another One Thousand Dollars. It would add up fast. Take the incentive for hiring people away, fine the employers, then start returning people to their country of orgin. The fines imposed would for pay for the return trip.

What an incredibly naive and insulated view of the problem - you completely ignore the real cause, and jump on the closest liberal bandwagon as it passes through town. Illegal immigrants don't come here because they are duped into it by unscrupulous employers. Listen close -- I'm only going to say this once - illegal immigrants come here because it offers their best opportunity to improve the lives of them and their families. Damn, that was insightful, wasn't it? Normally I charge for that kind of insight, but for you, it's free today.

Instead of a "Minimum Wage." there should be a "Living Wage." Pay people a salary that keeps their children fed, a roof over their head and lends dignity to their life.

I got a better idea !!! Pay for work received! Let's eliminate all welfare, medical assistance, housing assistance, WIC assistance, and all the other assistances --- and, then let's divert that money back to those people who actually have a job! In fact, what we'll do is subsidize minimum wage workers -- take all that freed-up tax money and give to those people working for minimum wage.

End the "Out Sourcing" of good paying jobs to other countries. Fine any U.S. Company Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) for each job sent overseas, that a well trained and well educated U.S. citizen could fill .

And end up with $40 heads of lettuce, $6K chips for your computer, and the complete inability to compete in the world market.

Do your own damn yard work.

Wash your own damn car.

Clean your own damn house.

No thanks. I worked my ass off at two and three jobs in order to be able to hire you.
[/QUOTE]

[Niceandsmove]

Don't like illegals... don't mean to offend...

[flamengo130]

Don't like illegals... don't mean to offend...

Nice post...nice! Since the Illegal Alien/Amnesty Bill failed, we are right back where we were...with the exception that it should have showed the "lawmakers" what the bulk of Americans want with this situation, and it certainly isn't amnesty. If the majority of the jobs being done by illegals are "jobs that Americans won't do", seems to me that if we make em all citizens (as in..Americans), they won't want to do those jobs either, and we'll have to get more illegals to do them. Seriously, I agree with Spare, that the correct compensation makes the less attractive job more desirable. But I draw the line at shovelling manure with my bare hands...I'll provide my own tools...lol.

[peaches]

Nice post...nice! Since the Illegal Alien/Amnesty Bill failed, we are right back where we were...with the exception that it should have showed the "lawmakers" what the bulk of Americans want with this situation, and it certainly isn't amnesty. If the majority of the jobs being done by illegals are "jobs that Americans won't do", seems to me that if we make em all citizens (as in..Americans), they won't want to do those jobs either, and we'll have to get more illegals to do them. Seriously, I agree with Spare, that the correct compensation makes the less attractive job more desirable. But I draw the line at shovelling manure with my bare hands...I'll provide my own tools...lol.
Very well said by you and spare chane...but to me the real problem lies in there own country and the ability to not take care of there own people and the way they think. But the heavy duty fining is a good place to start, I don't know about the jail time..they find some kind of loop-hole, they always do. But also Americans have become lazy with all the assistance that is out there for certian people...and personally I'm sick and tired of the illegals and the moochers of the United States.

[snowflake]

Snowflake, you are stating facts that the majority of people refuse to acknowledge or consider.

It is also a shame, that many of the "soft hearted and weak minded" people who are vocal about this would consider your comments "racially motivated."


I agree with your position 100%:55

Thank-you, this post was not in any way "racially motivated", it was a simply a product of my environment. I live on the Mexico border, therefor, that is the day to day illegal alien crossing that I know...:sc

[spare_change]

OK heres the deal. If you have even been to an Emergency Room you will notice a sign typically in English AND Spanish that states that no one is turned away even if they don't have the ability to pay for the medical services rendered. I don't disagree with this, if you really and truly need emergent medical care then it should be provided regardless of the ability to pay.

Now being in the health care field I can tell you that this system is SO farked up. Not just by illegals but also our citizens who refuse to work and live off of Welfare. When someone comes to the ER they have to be treated, and stablized. The problem is that across our country our ER's have become clinics for people who will not go to the Dr's office because some/all payment is required up front. They come to the ER for crap that should be treated at a Dr's office, because it is not a medical emergency. That is why there is such a long wait at our ER's. Then they gripe to high heaven because they have to wait. Well it is an EMERGENCY room, if it isn't an emergency you will have to wait. They give ficticous names, addresses,phone numbers and social security numbers and guess what the hospital has no way of tracking these people down for payment. It is money lost, money that you and I and our insurance carriers make up for. They say I didn't bring any identification, they can't be turned away so the hospital gets screwed every day and many times a day. It is tough to make up for those losses.

What I would love to see is an adjoining Urgent care center next door to the ER. If it is not an emergency you are sent to the urgent care center and are required to have identification and some type of payment. I really think this would cut down on the amount of unnecessary visits. The medical system is abused badly and it definitely needs to change.


Wow!

You don't suppose this is what would happen if we had socialized medicine, do you?

[longing for passion]

I like many other Americans have no problem with legal immigration. Yet I believe the problem lies much deeper. Unfortunately, there are many in our country (legally and illegally) who live with a sense of entitlement..."I am, therefore you owe me."

Regardless of age, race, or gender there is no excuse in this country for legal citizens not to better themselves. Regrettably, for the whiners, this comes at a cost...W.O.R.K.

For the lazy this is the land of entitlement, here legally or illegally, where we reward you with free food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, etc. In their defense, why should an individual make minimum wage (or less in another country) if one is "entitled" to government assistance that will provide even more money and resources; all while you sit on your behind? The problem will remain perpetual until we quit rewarding the behavior.

Please allow me to clarify. I fully realize we have all had periods in our life where we have fallen on hard times and needed extra help and for some, including me, this came in the form of government assistance. I believe this is the true spirit in which it was intended, temporary assistance. Therefore, I am no way implying nor suggesting these categories of individuals are lazy.

We all have to pay a price to get ahead in life, there are no short cuts and for most every breathing soul in this room it meant you had to work not only harder but smarter than the next guy (student loans, additional education/training, long hours, multiple jobs, etc). Nobody handed us anything or did it all for us.

Accordingly, I believe if you don't like what you're earning or where you are in life, YOU are responsible to change that and no other. No one owes you anything, in our country or any other, for that matter. You are who you are today because of the decisions you made yesterday. There is no one else to blame.

So, basically become a legal citizen, support yourself, pay your taxes, obey the laws and lose the entitlement mentality (legal or illegal). Then I will proudly say, “Welcome to America.”

If I have offended the working class I apologize in advance… but for the lazy…too *#!+ bad.

[tt]

Racist? You're barkin up the wrong tree.

Shall I will remind you that there is a code of conduct.

3) Respect is both required and demanded. Members will be gentlemen and ladies first, last, and always. All members will be respectful and civil to all other members. Discussions may happen – arguments may not.
http://www.marriedandflirtingchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1292

I read the third paragraph and in reviewing my post, I did not use language was rude, profane, scandalus, libelous, contrary to the standards of this site and nor was the comment used put in any language that on it's face, violates what Penny has written. You took it upon yourself to decide that is was somehow wrong, and it was not. It was the truth.

I was taught the only way to end Racism, is to confront racism. To stand up to racism and confront racism is the only Racism will ever end. Are you saying that allowing racism is something this site promotes, and would even condone?

I re-read the posts, and then reviewed my post. I asked a very valid question, and the response was racist. You do NOT want to confront racism, that says something about you.

Being conservative does not give you the right to decide what is or is not appropriate to site, on the other hand, if you are a person who prefers to not confront racism, I can see you point.

You would rather the racism to continue, it more than likely gives you and others some false sense of self importance.

I do not see your name listed as a moderater. If you are not a mod, by what right do you pretend to be to tell me what I can and/or cannot post?

[GeekMaster]

I read the third paragraph and in reviewing my post...

...I do not see your name listed as a moderater. If you are not a mod, by what right do you pretend to be to tell me what I can and/or cannot post?

You better check again.

[SirFox]

The Western and developed nations all have a problem with immigration: it is strange that we do not seem to be comapring notes and trying to find common solutions to common problems with what is a very basic North - South problem.

We were warned already 20 to 30 years ago of this problem: at the time it was easier to turn away from facing this. Today the Western nations are suddenly into crisis management (again)...

I am amazed to see Europeans talk of "their" problems concerning this, the French for the French, the Germans concerning their Turks, the Brits talk of Pakistanis and Indians and Afghanis, etc, the Italians talk of their Albanians, the Swiss of Bulgarian, Romanians, Peruvians.
The Algerians and the Nigerians are now starting to talk of the Chinese..

[spare_change]

I read the third paragraph and in reviewing my post, I did not use language was rude, profane, scandalus, libelous, contrary to the standards of this site and nor was the comment used put in any language that on it's face, violates what Penny has written. You took it upon yourself to decide that is was somehow wrong, and it was not. It was the truth.

I was taught the only way to end Racism, is to confront racism. To stand up to racism and confront racism is the only Racism will ever end. Are you saying that allowing racism is something this site promotes, and would even condone?

I re-read the posts, and then reviewed my post. I asked a very valid question, and the response was racist. You do NOT want to confront racism, that says something about you.

Being conservative does not give you the right to decide what is or is not appropriate to site, on the other hand, if you are a person who prefers to not confront racism, I can see you point.

You would rather the racism to continue, it more than likely gives you and others some false sense of self importance.

I do not see your name listed as a moderater. If you are not a mod, by what right do you pretend to be to tell me what I can and/or cannot post?


I am a moderator.

Ok --- let me make this as clear as I can --

1) Shiane is a moderator .... and properly performing her duty to point out your egregious (too big? www.dictionary.com) error.

2) You have a remarkable tendency to overstate your position, and by doing so, manage to offend any right-thinking person. Your "racist" comment was incorrect, out of line, and clearly violated the cited paragraph.

3) This site promotes nothing -- except for the free exchange of ideas without fear of ridiculous attacks like yours.

4) Your assumption that anyone who does not agree with you automatically makes them a racist, a war mongerer, or a bushie is racism of the worst kind - racism of thought, of action, and of deed. You, sir, need to be ashamed, and you need to state your opinion without attacking the other members. OR - you will be allowed to state your opinion somewhere else.

I trust that is clear. If not, let me state it simply -- your opinion is always welcome - we will review it, debate it, accept it, or maybe even challenge it -- but your attacks on the members will NOT continue.

[spare_change]

The Western and developed nations all have a problem with immigration: it is strange that we do not seem to be comapring notes and trying to find common solutions to common problems with what is a very basic North - South problem.

We were warned already 20 to 30 years ago of this problem: at the time it was easier to turn away from facing this. Today the Western nations are suddenly into crisis management (again)...

I am amazed to see Europeans talk of "their" problems concerning this, the French for the French, the Germans concerning their Turks, the Brits talk of Pakistanis and Indians and Afghanis, etc, the Italians talk of their Albanians, the Swiss of Bulgarian, Romanians, Peruvians.
The Algerians and the Nigerians are now starting to talk of the Chinese..

Sadly, what you say is true -- but then, it hearkens back to the real situation. We are all in it for ourselves -

[ldon]

This country was founded by illegal immigrants.. Unfortunately, the American Indian didn't have written laws governing immigration. And now we are faced with the same issues. I am hispanic born in the USA but agree that we need to do a better job of controlling our borders. What was said that was considered racist I don't know. What I do know is the difference between a racist and a person speaking their mind without offending any particular race. I would like to thank the moderators for doing their job as well has they have been doing.

[SirFox]

Sadly, what you say is true -- but then, it hearkens back to the real situation. We are all in it for ourselves -

So now we agree on one thing do we Spare?. I call that a revolution and a step for Mankind if you ask me. :D

[spare_change]

So now we agree on one thing do we Spare?. I call that a revolution and a step for Mankind if you ask me. :D

You call it a revolution -- I call it a pause for reconsideration!

I think we all agree on the basic nature of man -- it's just that some of us forget it, sometimes, and postulate ideas which will not work for that very reason.

[waterboy]

Hot topic. We need to do something here please write your congress men and women and let them konw you views. I don't agree with every one on here but something has to give. I a pro imigration but only legal. We need to toughen up our boarders for a number of reasons drugs immigration terrisiom ect.... I love my country and i love my god this keep me conflicted on this issue. I know that people come here for a better life but they need to follow the proper channels to keep this a desiable place to come. It is a tough one though but once again please write you congeress man and women they need to here from us

[spare_change]

Hot topic. We need to do something here please write your congress men and women and let them konw you views. I don't agree with every one on here but something has to give. I a pro imigration but only legal. We need to toughen up our boarders for a number of reasons drugs immigration terrisiom ect.... I love my country and i love my god this keep me conflicted on this issue. I know that people come here for a better life but they need to follow the proper channels to keep this a desiable place to come. It is a tough one though but once again please write you congeress man and women they need to here from us


Admirable advice.

[SirFox]

Admirable advice.

SPARE: "Admirable advice" or admirable advice?

[spare_change]

SPARE: "Admirable advice" or admirable advice?



Huh?

[ldon]

Why is it that every four years our politicians promise us the same things and every four years we elect the same promise breakers. I would write to my congressman, but guess what, they aleady know the issues that need to be addressed and resolved. Inefficiency prevails at all levels in the US Govenment. What we need is to run this country like a big business and eliminate dead weight. But how can we do that when the elected officials surround themselves with their croonies? I really don't know what the solution is but I see our country going wthe way of other great empires. Maybe we could learn from history, but I doubt it. One the other hand, I'de rather live here than any other place. Just wish we could make some headway.

[spare_change]

Why is it that every four years our politicians promise us the same things and every four years we elect the same promise breakers. I would write to my congressman, but guess what, they aleady know the issues that need to be addressed and resolved. Inefficiency prevails at all levels in the US Govenment. What we need is to run this country like a big business and eliminate dead weight. But how can we do that when the elected officials surround themselves with their croonies? I really don't know what the solution is but I see our country going wthe way of other great empires. Maybe we could learn from history, but I doubt it. One the other hand, I'de rather live here than any other place. Just wish we could make some headway.

We have another thread that talked about this -- http://www.marriedandflirtingchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3602

I think it's important to recognize that most of our congressmen aren't knowledgable on most issues --- there is just too much going on. So, they rely on staff reports, advocate position papers, and input from the people they talk to every day.

We also have to recognize that the people in Washington have a decided East Coast bias (cuz they all live there --- duh!), and thus, don't really know what their constituents want back home. They are inundated daily with all this stuff -- and none of it from the people.

That's why your communication with your congressmen is so important -- tell them what you think. They truly operate in a vacuum.

[spare_change]

Mexican President: We Are Coming!

Friday, September 28, 2007 10:19 AM

PUERTO PENASCO, Mexico — Mexican President Felipe Calderon told U.S. governors Thursday that immigration is an inevitable, natural phenomenon and he urged the U.S. Congress to approve reforms that would allow more Mexicans to work legally north of the border.

Calderon demanded that the United States respect "the right to work wherever one can make the greatest contribution."

"Immigration is a natural phenomenon that is economically and socially inevitable," he told the meeting in this Sonora seaside resort town.

In a rare acknowledgment of the costs of migration for Mexico, Calderon said his country "doesn't not celebrate migration ... our best people are the ones who go."

Immigration and border security were among the top issues at the meeting, the 25th annual such event between Mexican and U.S. governors from states along the two countries' common border. Mexican officials were focused on stopping the illegal flow of U.S. weapons into Mexico and protesting expansion of U.S. border fencing. For the Americans, the drug trade, migration and border security topped the list.

On Monday, the U.S. government announced plans to erect about 370 miles (600 kilometers) of fencing and 200 miles (320 kilometers) of vehicle barriers by the end of 2008.

Tension over the fences — which have drawn criticism from environmentalists, land owners and politicians both in Mexico and the United States — surfaced at the meeting.

"This is the great tragedy," said Carlos de la Parra, a participant in the conference's environmental panel, as he pointed to a map of proposed border fences separating nature reserves. Mentioning a list of wildlife that migrates across the border, Parra, of Mexico's Colegio de la Frontera, noted "these animals don't cross the border to shop. They do it out of necessity."

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has opposed the border fencing, praised Mexico and its cooperation with its northern neighbor.

"The relationship has become stronger and stronger each year," he said. "We have become more than just good neighbors. We have become great friends."

Describing his many visits to Mexico since his first one 40 years ago, Schwarzenegger lifted a line from his movie "Terminator," quipping, "I always look forward to saying, 'I'll be back."

Eduardo Bours, governor of the border state of Sonora, called for more border crossings, saying those that exist between Arizona and Sonora are saturated.

"There are lines of three, four and five hours, and so we have to invest much more in border crossings," he said.

He also called for a crackdown on U.S. weapons that "cross the border all too easily." Calderon said weapons illicitly smuggled in from the U.S. had been responsible for killing dozens of Mexican policemen