Sudan Charges British Teacher With Insulting Religion

[spare_change]

Sudan Charges British Teacher With Insulting Religion With 'Muhammad' Teddy Bear

Wednesday, November 28, 2007

KHARTOUM, Sudan — Sudan charged a British teacher on Wednesday with insulting religion and inciting hatred — a crime punishable by up to 40 lashes, six months in prison or a fine — after she named a class teddy bear "Muhammad."

The charges come a day after a 7-year-old Sudanese boy said Gilliam Gibbons, 54, asked him what he wanted to call the stuffed animal as part of a school assignment and he said, "Muhammad," after his name.

The British government says the foreign secretary has summoned the Sudanese ambassador to discuss the religious hatred charge against the teacher.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown's spokesman, Michael Ellam, said Miliband would discuss the charge of inciting religious hatred against teacher, Gillian Gibbons. The meeting will take place as soon as possible, the Foreign Office said.

Gibbons, of the private Unity High School in Khartoum, was arrested Sunday after one of her pupils' parents complained, accusing her of naming the bear after Islam's chief prophet. "Muhammad" is a common name among Muslim men, but connecting the Prophet's name to an animal could be seen as insulting by many Muslims.

Several Sudanese newspapers on Tuesday ran a statement reportedly from Unity High School saying that Gibbons had been "removed from work at the school" and apologizing for any offense, though it said the incident was a "misunderstanding."
Related

The boy said when he suggested they name the bear Muhammad, he wasn't thinking of Islam's Prophet, Reuters reported.

He also said most of the class agreed with him on the name, Reuters reported.

In the first official comment on the case, Sudanese Foreign Ministry on Tuesday downplayed its significance, describing it as isolated but also condemning it.

Ministry spokesman, Ali al-Sadeq, said the case of a "teacher's misconduct against the Islamic faith" should not have provoked a British government caution warning to its citizens in Sudan.

Al-Sadeq said this was particularly so after the school had apologized to the parents, pupils and to the Sudanese in general for the teacher's "unacceptable conduct."

The statement in the newspapers was not officially confirmed by the school, however.

A person reached by phone at the school who identified herself as an administrator, said the statement was correct but would not confirm details in it. She refused to give her name, citing the sensitivity of the situation. She said the school has closed for at least the next week until the controversy eases.

The Unity High School, a private English-language school with elementary to high school levels, was founded by Christian groups but 90 percent of its students are Muslim, mostly from upper-class Sudanese families.

The school's director, Robert Boulos, told the British Broadcasting Corp. that the incident was "a completely innocent mistake. Miss Gibbons would have never wanted to insult Islam."

Gibbons was teaching her pupils, who are around 7 years old, about animals and asked one of them to bring in her teddy bear, Boulos said. She asked the students to pick names for it and they proposed Abdullah, Hassan and Muhammad, and in the end the pupils voted to name it Muhammad, he said.

Each child was allowed to take the bear home on weekends and write a diary about what they did with it. The diary entries were collected in a book with the bear's picture on the cover, labeled, "My Name is Muhammad," though the bear itself was never labeled with the name, he said.

A former colleague of Gibbons, Jill Langworthy, told The Associated Press the lesson is a common one in Britain. "She's a wonderful and inspirational teacher, and if she offended or insulted anybody she'd be dreadfully sorry," Langworthy, who taught with Gibbons in Liverpool, said.

The case brought widespread calls in Britain for her release. The Muslim Council of Britain calls upon the Sudanese government to intervene in the case.

"This is a very unfortunate incident and Ms Gibbons should never have been arrested in the first place. It is obvious that no malice was intended," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council's secretary-general.

British opposition Conservative party lawmaker William Hague called on the British government to "make it clear to the Sudanese authorities that she should be released immediately."

"To condemn Gillian Gibbons to such brutal and barbaric punishment for what appears to be an innocent mistake is clearly unacceptable," he said.

In the U.S., a spokeswoman for the National Organization for Women said the situation is definitely on the radar, and N.O.W. is not ignoring it.

But she added that the U.S.-based organization is not putting out a statement or taking a position.

Radio personality Tammy Bruce, former president of the Los Angles chapter of the National Organization for Women and past member of their board of directors, criticized the organization for not taking a stand.

“We have a duty to make a difference for women around the world,” Bruce told FOX News. “The supposed feminist establishment is refusing to take a position in this regard because they have no sensibility of what is right anymore. They're afraid of offending people. They are bound by political correctness.”

“The American feminist movement has not taken one stand to support the women of Iraq, the women of Afghanistan, the women of Iran,” she said. “It is the United States Marines who have been doing the feminist work by liberating women and children around the world.”

Omar Daair, spokesman for the British Embassy in Sudan, said embassy officials were in touch with Sudanese authorities and had met with Gibbons. He said he expected authorities to decide whether to bring her to court, and on what charges, within a few days. "Her lawyer is trying to get her released on bail in the meanwhile," he said.

Gibbons was being questioned on suspicion of abuse of religion — a charge that is punishable by up to six months in prison, a fine or flogging of up to 40 lashes under Sudan's Islamic law-based legal system.

The case recalled the outrage that was sparked in the Islamic world when European newspapers ran cartoons deriding the Prophet Muhammad in recent years, prompting protests in many Muslim countries. The Prophet Muhammad is highly revered by Muslims, and most interpretations of the religion bar even favorable depiction of him, for fear of encouraging idolatry or misrepresenting him.

Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir earlier this month suggested he would ban Denmark, Sweden and Norway — where newspapers ran the cartoons — from contributing engineering personnel to a planned U.N.-African Union peacekeeping force in the war-torn Sudanese region of Darfur.

But Sudanese authorities appeared so far to be playing down the incident of the British teacher. Her case has not been mentioned in state media.

The reported statement from the school said the administration "offers an official apology to the students and their families and all Muslims for what came from an individual initiative." It said Gibbons had been "removed from her work at the school."

The statement underlined the school's "deep respect for the heavenly religions" and for the "beliefs of Muslims and their rituals." It added that "the misunderstanding that has been raised over this issue leads to divisions that are disadvantageous to the reputation of the tolerant Sudanese people.

[spare_change]

I found the comments of the NOW representative almost as offensive as the actions of the government of Sudan -- almost.

[sargethree]

:mad: What else is old with those radical religious idiots?

[p.J]

Ah yes. Islam, the religion of tolerance, peace and reconciliation... :(

Yea and I suppose the cultural relativists will find a way to tie this latest outrage into the US/UK ME policy. Or better still blame Israel.:(
Once again an overblown and ill conceived reaction to a non-event. This is yet another demonstration that political Islam is an outdated medievalist creed that has no place in the modern world. Bloody outrageous!

[PunkyBob]

Get over it. Get a life. Learn to take a f-----g joke, ferchrissakes.

[Cotties]

Foreigners in a foreign land must know and play by the rules.

It brings great pride to many nations to occasionally remind foreigners of where they are and who is in charge.

Teaching overseas for many years has taught me the arrogance of westerners greatly upsets the locals and officials. So often they will pick a foreigner out for no evident reason and make an example out of them. Many poorer nations adopt western ideas and the upper class send their children to western schools thinking this will give them a better chance at life. The poorer folk never have a way out of the country through education. It makes foreigners an easy target for officials to gain popularity amongst the working class. It's hard restoring national pride when the country has little to be proud of. Tradition and culture is the easiest way to do this and saying westerners are trying to corrupt our ideas takes heat of corrupt officials.

[Cotties]

I'm not defending what they have done to this poor women. But it is not all about religion and our western dislike of this religion. When arriving in the foreign country and at this school, this women would have been told a thousand times..Never insult Muhammad, never insult Islam and have been given some simple guidelines to follow. In the west we hold very few things genuinely sacred. I have seen time and time again westerners laugh at these simple people thinking they know whats best. Punishing one person may send a signal out to all western schools who in turn will remind all their teachers. Different things are sacred and always remember where you are.

[spare_change]

Just goes to show ---- stupidity knows no borders.

[Cotties]

yepJust goes to show ---- stupidity knows no borders.

[MagicalBeing]

it is always going to be that way

[Cotties]

yepit is always going to be that way

[MagicalBeing]

we should send people that name their kids Jesus to jail too

[MagicalBeing]

we all need to understand that most of the time people do things because they just think that is ok and they dont mean to do anything wrong.. we just need to tolerate a little bit more.. peace..

[Cotties]

....but tolerating the righteous does get tiringwe just need to tolerate a little bit more.. peace....nice post anyway

[Pebbles]

She has been charged not convicted. Wait a little. Given the sensitivities that exist around the issues of blasphemy particularly in Islam (known for ages to even non-muslims because of media spotlight), it is necessary to find out at least her motivations. She was in Sudan not in England and ignorance is not always your defence. However, If she is not found to have been involved in all this maliciously and still convicted, matter would rightly be considered 'blown out of proportions'.

[Shiane]

That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of. See what happenes when you let children handle things. They don't see color, they don't see race, they don't see religion, the see a teddy bear, there was no malice in their heart. It was the adults who made a big deal out of nothing.

[Cotties]

The real shame about an article like this is we can relate to a western women working in a Christian school but as many as 2.5 million people are thought to have been displaced as of October 2006 in Sudan. 400,000 killed because of tribal and religious conflict and what gets news attention...bad bad government with Islamic law picking on a white women..no shit they are bad

This link comes with a nice pic and a bit of info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict

also in Sydney we seem to have thousands of Sudanese refugees living here...these people have really left a fucked up country..to want to head there and teach amazes me

[Shiane]

The real shame about an article like this is we can relate to a western women working in a Christian school but as many as 2.5 million people are thought to have been displaced as of October 2006 in Sudan. 400,000 killed because of tribal and religious conflict and what gets news attention...bad bad government with Islamic law picking on a white women..no shit they are bad

This link comes with a nice pic and a bit of info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict

also in Sydney we seem to have thousands of Sudanese refugees living here...these people have really left a fucked up country..to want to head there and teach amazes me

You are so right! It really pisses me off that our media finds the most rediculous crap to call newsworthy. This kind of stuff belongs in a tabloid, The National Bullshitter! It is sad that a Teddy bear named Muhammed gets more attention from the international press than 400,000 dead and 2.5 million displaced Sudanese people.

[PunkyBob]

You are so right! It really pisses me off that our media finds the most rediculous crap to call newsworthy. This kind of stuff belongs in a tabloid, The National Bullshitter! It is sad that a Teddy bear named Muhammed gets more attention from the international press than 400,000 dead and 2.5 million displaced Sudanese people.

The media is like every other business: its goal is to make money, satisfy the shareholders and make money (did I say that already?). To do so they determine what sells...and it seems that from years of study, the best product is the juicy, traumatic, heart-rending, sensational stuff...not the serious things that actually affect our lives. We have been trained to not think anymore about what really matters...too dense, too complicated. Too depressing. Crap, if it bothered us that much...maybe....just maybe...we'd do something about it??? Make some noise? Pressure them to change their policies? The media reflects the audience, folks...that's our cultural barometer.

[p.a]

I think before we cast stones at other countries we may want to consider our own tainted histories. Here in America God fearing people use to own slaves, and women have had the right to vote for only 86 years or so. Both Mormons and Jews have suffered religious persecution by the dominant Christian core group in this country.
The obvious invisibility of NOW could be a wise decision on there part. By not getting involved and allowing the diplomats to handle it keeps the issue from getting any worse for the school teacher. We are living in tenuous times where feeling about ones religion is a bit raw.

The Serenity Prayer
Path

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

[subtlehands]

Very thoughtful posts from cotties and pebbles with which I tend to agree. We need to see what happens here but I don't we need to tarnish Islam with the sudanese interpretation of sharia law. One thought though - why did the children not already know that giving the name of the prophet to an object would be blasphemous?

[p.a]

Very thoughtful posts from cotties and pebbles with which I tend to agree. We need to see what happens here but I don't we need to tarnish Islam with the sudanese interpretation of sharia law. One thought though - why did the children not already know that giving the name of the prophet to an object would be blasphemous?

Because they were 7 year olds maybe? Or as Cottie said Teaching overseas for many years has taught me the arrogance of westerners greatly upsets the locals and officials. So often they will pick a foreigner out for no evident reason and make an example out of them.

[subtlehands]

Peteraskme,

In islamic law you're an adult at 12. Thes kids would already have been taught about their religion. It's in their culture; all around them...

[p.J]

Sorry guys... I think the teddy should have been charged, found guilty and whipped to death!


Damn I am sooooo bloody fed-up to the back teeth with 'us' having to adopt a tolerant view where these religious fanatics are concerned! In fact this has only confirmed what an endemically intolerant and racist religion this is. Do the Sudanese authorities not realise the potential far-reaching implications of this farce? Why is it that the Muslin faith demands the World to make allowances for it but does not return the courtesy?
I wonder what the British Government will do, oh yes they'll posture and mildly rebuke but in the end, they will do nothing to help this poor woman. :(

[subtlehands]

I can't agree Jenny. I do not think that Islam can be said to be inherently intolerant and racist - particularly when viewed in a historical context. Can it be said to be anymore racist than christianity which was used to justify 400 years of slavery (a genocide the west won't admit to). Muslims were not responsible for the rise of Hitler in a country which saw itself as a product of the Enlightenment - and slaughtered it's intellectuals simply because they were jewish. Islam is not the genesis of the eugenic theories practiced in 20th Century Australia or Canada where attempts were made to breed out the aborigines or sterilise the mentally infirm. My point is that all faiths/political idealogies can be corrupted or twisted.

I also don't think your point about muslims demanding the world make allowances but not returning the favour is necessarily justified. Muslims have lived in the west for generations and followed the law. There has not been the clash of civilisations beloved of lazy politicians.

[p.J]

I can't agree Jenny. I do not think that Islam can be said to be inherently intolerant and racist - particularly when viewed in a historical context. Can it be said to be anymore racist than christianity which was used to justify 400 years of slavery (a genocide the west won't admit to). Muslims were not responsible for the rise of Hitler in a country which saw itself as a product of the Enlightenment - and slaughtered it's intellectuals simply because they were jewish. Islam is not the genesis of the eugenic theories practiced in 20th Century Australia or Canada where attempts were made to breed out the aborigines or sterilise the mentally infirm. My point is that all faiths/political idealogies can be corrupted or twisted.

I also don't think your point about muslims demanding the world make allowances but not returning the favour is necessarily justified. Muslims have lived in the west for generations and followed the law. There has not been the clash of civilisations beloved of lazy politicians.

This is not simply an isolated incident... How many incidents before we can judge? with the dozens of countries in the world under the Islamic boot of oppression, being Terrorised and in conflict for survival, the beheadings, stonings and hanging of homosexuals - not to mention the cartoons, the false rumour of a Qu'ran being splashed with water in Gitmo, Pope speech, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh etc and now TeddyGate.



"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery "Teacher, .In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" he said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, ..Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Has no one condemned you?" "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared "Now leave your life of sin." Mark 8

[Huzyerdaddi]

This is not simply an isolated incident... How many incidents before we can judge? with the dozens of countries in the world under the Islamic boot of oppression, being Terrorised and in conflict for survival, the beheadings, stonings and hanging of homosexuals - not to mention the cartoons, the false rumour of a Qu'ran being splashed with water in Gitmo, Pope speech, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh etc and now TeddyGate.




See there boys! This is why we can never win an argument with a woman. They remember stuff we never knew to begin with ;)

[subtlehands]

I dont mind you judging Jen - but I think you need to separate the philosophy of islam from its flawed interpretation. You need to consider it's implementation in a political context.

Now taking your points in turns:

(a) "Countries under the Islamic boot of oppression" - which ones exactly? Well Iraq wasn't one. Shall we say Saudi Arabia - a tribal culture in the grip of a extreme and fringe strand of islamic thought that wasn't the mainstream for 1400 of islamic history. And why has that fringe interpretation been promulgated by America's greatest friend - oil. Then you have Iran - a country whose revolution is not yet 30 years old, but one where women can vote and there is a thriving moderate and pro-west opposition with whom we should engage. And sorry to say it but got to have history again - maybe the Ayatollah would not have been in power if the British and US had not overthrown a secular government in 1953 or allowed the Shah's secret police to torture thousands. Also - is the Islamic boot of oppression any worse than the colonial boot.
(b) Gay rights - yes Islamic countries dont treat gays well but they'll evolve like all societies. Why one day the Chief Rabbi will regret his support for clause 28 and even George Bush will say gay marriage was not such a bad idea.

(C) The cartoons, rushdie and Theo Van Gogh - You're right. Muslims especially in the west will have to understand that a right to free speech (i.e. to their beliefs) does not bring a right not to be offended. Thoe Van Gogh was killed by a nutter. He had a perfect right to express his opinions - which by the way - were anti-semitic and racist.
My problem with how muslims protest is that the only people to ever die in such a protest are usually muslims. It's time they realise the power of the sitt-in and the economic boycott. But why do they protest in the way the do? Because a protest against the west is usually the only kind of protest that is allowed in one party states and/or run by the military such as Egypt and Libya - states which cannot be said to be islamic.

I think your views are too general Jen. The actions of a few extremists are used to condemn a religion that protected the jews fleeing European persecution in the 15/16th centuries; gave the world its numbering system; resulted in the establishment of three great empires; preserved the greco-roman works which underpinned the European enlightment and more recently gave thousands of its men to serve in the armies of Britain and France in WW1 and WW2 - men who were prepared to give their lives so that you and I can exercise our right to free speech.

Now come on .. let's kiss and make up

[Huzyerdaddi]

I've only met a few people in my life from the UK. I find them all well informed and, subsequently, very argumentative. You guys amuse me.

[subtlehands]

is that you volunteering to be a referee Huz?

[Huzyerdaddi]

is that you volunteering to be a referee Huz?

I wouldn't make a good ref here. Bias and partiality would get in the way.

[subtlehands]

I think I translate that as Subtlehands - no points!

[Huzyerdaddi]

I think I translate that as Subtlehands - no points!

Sorry, friend. To me, you're just a cartoon. She's a slice of brunette with amazing eyes.

[p.J]

I dont mind you judging Jen - but I think you need to separate the philosophy of islam from its flawed interpretation. You need to consider it's implementation in a political context.

Now taking your points in turns:

(a) "Countries under the Islamic boot of oppression" - which ones exactly? Well Iraq wasn't one. Shall we say Saudi Arabia - a tribal culture in the grip of a extreme and fringe strand of islamic thought that wasn't the mainstream for 1400 of islamic history. And why has that fringe interpretation been promulgated by America's greatest friend - oil. Then you have Iran - a country whose revolution is not yet 30 years old, but one where women can vote and there is a thriving moderate and pro-west opposition with whom we should engage. And sorry to say it but got to have history again - maybe the Ayatollah would not have been in power if the British and US had not overthrown a secular government in 1953 or allowed the Shah's secret police to torture thousands. Also - is the Islamic boot of oppression any worse than the colonial boot.
(b) Gay rights - yes Islamic countries dont treat gays well but they'll evolve like all societies. Why one day the Chief Rabbi will regret his support for clause 28 and even George Bush will say gay marriage was not such a bad idea.

(C) The cartoons, rushdie and Theo Van Gogh - You're right. Muslims especially in the west will have to understand that a right to free speech (i.e. to their beliefs) does not bring a right not to be offended. Thoe Van Gogh was killed by a nutter. He had a perfect right to express his opinions - which by the way - were anti-semitic and racist.
My problem with how muslims protest is that the only people to ever die in such a protest are usually muslims. It's time they realise the power of the sitt-in and the economic boycott. But why do they protest in the way the do? Because a protest against the west is usually the only kind of protest that is allowed in one party states and/or run by the military such as Egypt and Libya - states which cannot be said to be islamic.

I think your views are too general Jen. The actions of a few extremists are used to condemn a religion that protected the jews fleeing European persecution in the 15/16th centuries; gave the world its numbering system; resulted in the establishment of three great empires; preserved the greco-roman works which underpinned the European enlightment and more recently gave thousands of its men to serve in the armies of Britain and France in WW1 and WW2 - men who were prepared to give their lives so that you and I can exercise our right to free speech.

Now come on .. let's kiss and make up

Prefer dinner and a bottle of wine... this discussion needs attention! and what better way than the British way... over the table eating good nosh and an excellent merlot! ;)

[subtlehands]

Excellent idea - just as long as you don't get the notion to behead me with the fish knives.

[p.J]

Excellent idea - just as long as you don't get the notion to behead me with the fish knives.

No... but my tongue is pretty sharp! In the context of this discussion naturally!

[subtlehands]

Lol.. a tongue of variable softness is of importance in this harsh and forgiving world

[Huzyerdaddi]

Another observation from the American: Had anyone other than two well refined Brits been carrying on this dialogue...it would have decended rapidly once the mention of "tongue" was introduced.

Carry on.

[subtlehands]

Well if that is not an invitation to jump off the erotic edge then I don't know what is!

Jen are you ready?

[spare_change]

From the Koran (thanks, Shiane!):


3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah...

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

4:89
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,”

2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression

2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you


5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself

8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers

9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.

9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.

9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an

9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

22:9, (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).


"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
(Qur'an/Koran, Repentance 9:5)

"Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure."
(Qur'an/Koran, The Ranks 61:4)

"Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain."
(Qur'an/Koran, Muhammad 47:4)

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."
(Qur'an/Koran, Spoils of War 8:12)

There are 123 verses in the Qu'ran about killing and fighting, these are just a few, none of which sounds very peaceful to me.

[spare_change]

If the core tenets of a religion advocate my death, I'm guessing it's not a religion of peace to me.

[Huzyerdaddi]

From the Koran (thanks, Shiane!):


3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to terrorize thereby the enemy of Allah...

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

4:89
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,”

2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression

2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you


5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself

8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers

9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

9:3, And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.

9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.

9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an

9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

22:9, (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).


"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
(Qur'an/Koran, Repentance 9:5)

"Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure."
(Qur'an/Koran, The Ranks 61:4)

"Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain."
(Qur'an/Koran, Muhammad 47:4)

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."
(Qur'an/Koran, Spoils of War 8:12)

There are 123 verses in the Qu'ran about killing and fighting, these are just a few, none of which sounds very peaceful to me.


Wow. You really know your Koran. Or is it your CTRL+C and CTRL+V?

[p.J]

Well if that is not an invitation to jump off the erotic edge then I don't know what is!

Jen are you ready?

Teetering as we speak!

[Huzyerdaddi]

If the core tenets of a religion advocate my death, I'm guessing it's not a religion of peace to me.

Indirectly, don't all religions advocate death? The promise of a better afterlife than life on Earth? Wasn't it Paul in his letter to the Philippians (1:21) who said "to live is Christ, to die is gain"?

[subtlehands]

If this debate is to have any value then every has to recognise that context is everything. Read literally the Bible allows you to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21.7) advocates that everyone who who works on the Sabbath must be executed (Exodus 35.2). It forbids people eating rabbit or pig - or even touch their carcasses (Leviticus 11 6-7).

Humm methinks some christians could be in trouble on judgement day

[Huzyerdaddi]

If this debate is to have any value then every has to recognise that context is everything. Read literally the Bible allows you to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21.7) advocates that everyone who who works on the Sabbath must be executed (Exodus 35.2). It forbids people eating rabbit or pig - or even touch their carcasses (Leviticus 11 6-7).

Humm methinks some christians could be in trouble on judgement day

The is room for context and literal interpretation. Prior to the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ, the world operated under "The Law" and as such, those things you mentioned (old testament) were to be taken literally. Through Christ, we no longer live under the law, but in the grace of God, therefore, those rules no longer apply.

[spare_change]

If this debate is to have any value then every has to recognise that context is everything. Read literally the Bible allows you to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21.7) advocates that everyone who who works on the Sabbath must be executed (Exodus 35.2). It forbids people eating rabbit or pig - or even touch their carcasses (Leviticus 11 6-7).

Humm methinks some christians could be in trouble on judgement day


I disagree. The question on the table is not whether Islam is different than Christianity, or even if it is better or worse.

The question is whether Islam is a religion of peace or violence. What Christianity might be is, at best, irrelevant.

[spare_change]

Wow. You really know your Koran. Or is it your CTRL+C and CTRL+V?


Actually, it is a piece of a much more in-depth discussion we had on this very site. One of our resident beauties (she's got a killer ass, and she's smart, too! Don't get no better than that!) put it together. I admit I copied it over here, but had it not been for her hard work, we wouldn't have known about it. If you like, just Search the site for Koran. It'll all show up.

Sharing knowledge is such fun.

[p.a]

The is room for context and literal interpretation. Prior to the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ, the world operated under "The Law" and as such, those things you mentioned (old testament) were to be taken literally. Through Christ, we no longer live under the law, but in the grace of God, therefore, those rules no longer apply.

Actually there are certain groups right here in America who do take the old testament literally still. I think the point is that any religion can be taken to extremes. The Spanish Inquisition was an extreme example of Catholicism 1600 years after the birth of Christ. I recently saw a history channel segment about " Hillbillies " and there contribution to American folk lore. It spoke of an instance where a certain group of Christians use snakes as part of there worship service. Other Christian groups would take offense being that snakes represent the serpent from the old testament.

One of my co-workers is an American born Muslim who has told me that those who try to indict her religion usually do so by taking certain passages out of context.

[spare_change]

Actually there are certain groups right here in America who do take the old testament literally still. I think the point is that any religion can be taken to extremes. The Spanish Inquisition was an extreme example of Catholicism 1600 years after the birth of Christ. I recently saw a history channel segment about " Hillbillies " and there contribution to American folk lore. It spoke of an instance where a certain group of Christians use snakes as part of there worship service. Other Christian groups would take offense being that snakes represent the serpent from the old testament.

One of my co-workers is an American born Muslim who has told me that those who try to indict her religion usually do so by taking certain passages out of context.

Is there any chance that your co-worker could be convinced to enter into dialogue about Islam? We all suffer from a lack of knowledge, and would certainly I would appreciate a knowledgeable source. We can't understand, if they won't share.

[spare_change]

Oh, by the way --- the trial is over. She got 15 days in jail and lifetime deportation.

[Barkiss]

Oh, by the way --- the trial is over. She got 15 days in jail and lifetime deportation.

You know...she was in their land and disrespected what they cherish more than anything. As Westerners we like to preach tolerance of others, yet we jump up and down when "our" rules are broken in someone else's home.

Considering the penalty was lashes, 15 days and deportation seems quite fair....in THEIR court of law.

[p.J]

Oh, by the way --- the trial is over. She got 15 days in jail and lifetime deportation.


What was an innocent error escalated into a charge, and a charge of which she's now been found guilty... the fear as I see it is this wasn't seen as an individual issue but as something that could get bound up in international politics!

[spare_change]

You know...she was in their land and disrespected what they cherish more than anything. As Westerners we like to preach tolerance of others, yet we jump up and down when "our" rules are broken in someone else's home.

Considering the penalty was lashes, 15 days and deportation seems quite fair....in THEIR court of law.


Well, I'll be damned -- look who's here!

Actually, she didn't disrespect anything. The kids are the ones who named the teddy bear. I guess each of them deserves at least 15 lashes, huh?

Besides, it isn't our rules that were broken -- it was theirs, and we are commenting on them (Yeah, I softened my response -- see what effect you have?)

[subtlehands]

Nobody got 15 lashes. I'm not happy about the case because I think this woman made an innocent mistake but it does not automatically mean that the Sudanese judicial system was unfair. This person was alleged to have broken a law of that country; she was arrested and held; allowed access to lawyers; bought before a court and tried according to the law of the country she was working in. She was then sentenced which includes deportation (Britain deports all its foreign prisoners too).

I suspect this sentence of 15 days was a pragmatic result. No more diplomatic confrontation between Britain and Sudan. No barbaric punishment and the teacher back home. Best outcome one could forsee.

[p.a]

Is there any chance that your co-worker could be convinced to enter into dialogue about Islam? We all suffer from a lack of knowledge, and would certainly I would appreciate a knowledgeable source. We can't understand, if they won't share.

I'm sure she would, she's a very nice person and very easy to talk to. I will talk to her about it. I will also ask my wifes niece who recently converted from Jehovah's witness ( raised that way from a child ) to Islam. Her husband is Islamic.

[PunkyBob]

Everything has ramifications. Religion, when unaccompanied by free thought, can easily be a "my way or no way" deal. We all know there extremists of every cut and color. In my town we have a preacher who believes every single word in the Bible and condemns non-believers...but he's only one out of a few thousand. I believe that most folks who subscribe to a religious belief do so privately, and without a desire to change the world to their point of view. I know many Muslims and only one has ever tried to convert me. (Soon as I told him I'm an atheist I thought he'd die from shock.) I know Christians who either pity me or shun me because I don't "see the light." But they are microscopically few in comparison to all the kazillion Christians I've known. It isn't absolutely the religion by itself, I believe...read the Old testament and see how many incidents of slaughter in god's name there are. The Koran has passages that preach violence, too. Right now the world is caught up in the Middle East unrest, and Islam, Christianity and Judaism are highlighted against each other...which is absurd because they all worship the same supreme deity.

[sargethree]

My problem is not with Islam or the people who are a peaceful part of it. It's the radicals who twist and pervert Islam into a "God-given duty" (my own words) to maim, rape, torture, and kill people that I have a hearty dislike for. I have seen several videos of captives having their heads cut off while these "holy warriors" stand around chanting like pagans. If you haven't seen any of these videos, I don't mean heads were chopped off with a sword or something like that. Live victims had their heads CUT off with a knife like you would clean a fish. It's the most sickening thing I have ever seen, and I have seen some very terrible things. I can't really put into words why I made myself watch these horrors. It's something like if they had to suffer such a terrible death, then I can suffer seeing it and never forget them. That's the best way I can describe it.

Then there was a report of a teenage girl who was raped by four men in from of her family because HER YOUNGER BROTHER was seen walking with a girl who was of a higher "caste" than him. This "punishment" was ORDERED by the local cleric or whatever you want to call him (I have a few choice names). This report came from an international news agency.

As I said, it's these radicals that I truly hate. And I can say that for any group. I consider myself a Christian and there are those who consider themselves Christians who are just as bad. I am not aquainted with anyone who is a Muslim, but their religion would not matter one whit to me. I would be interested in what kind of person they are. I would be interested in them. Everything else is just something to talk about while getting to know them.

[PunkyBob]

Tonight on "How Fucking Absurd Is the World Really?"...

Anybody remember the caning penalty in Singapore for chewing gum???

[p.a]

Peteraskme,

In islamic law you're an adult at 12. Thes kids would already have been taught about their religion. It's in their culture; all around them...

So does that mean that an islamic child is more sophisticated and or more adolescent at 7 than say an American child of the same age?

Understand that I'm born and raised in a western culture so my sensibilties are govern by that. It is difficult for me to hold a 7 year old to task simply because they havn't lived long enough to realize the seriousness of there actions. When I was 7 and in church, my thoughts were not so serious. My thinking was that I was in a place where I had to sit for what seem like hours trying not to fall asleep, and hoping the man yelling and screaming up front would hurry up so I can get outside to play with my friends.
I don't know the answers about over there but I do recognize bias when I hear it. No I don't mean your being biased. Must be clear about that. Some how the way I word things tend to be taken out of context.

[p.a]

My problem is not with Islam or the people who are a peaceful part of it. It's the radicals who twist and pervert Islam into a "God-given duty" (my own words) to maim, rape, torture, and kill people that I have a hearty dislike for. I have seen several videos of captives having their heads cut off while these "holy warriors" stand around chanting like pagans. If you haven't seen any of these videos, I don't mean heads were chopped off with a sword or something like that. Live victims had their heads CUT off with a knife like you would clean a fish. It's the most sickening thing I have ever seen, and I have seen some very terrible things. I can't really put into words why I made myself watch these horrors. It's something like if they had to suffer such a terrible death, then I can suffer seeing it and never forget them. That's the best way I can describe it.

Then there was a report of a teenage girl who was raped by four men in from of her family because HER YOUNGER BROTHER was seen walking with a girl who was of a higher "caste" than him. This "punishment" was ORDERED by the local cleric or whatever you want to call him (I have a few choice names). This report came from an international news agency.

As I said, it's these radicals that I truly hate. And I can say that for any group. I consider myself a Christian and there are those who consider themselves Christians who are just as bad. I am not aquainted with anyone who is a Muslim, but their religion would not matter one whit to me. I would be interested in what kind of person they are. I would be interested in them. Everything else is just something to talk about while getting to know them.

Great point Sarge!:55

My wife is Methodist. I'm Baptist. Her oldest daughter is Catholic. Our youngest daughter is non-denominational. My oldest son is an atheist. My youngest son just recently started going to church. My oldest daughters are baptist. My youngest sister is an Evangelist. My wifes sisters are Jehovah's Witness. My wifes brothers are non-denominational. My wifes niece has converted from witness to Islam. My wifes mother is Methodist. My wifes father is Church of God and Christ Elder.

My point is that with all the religions represented in my family alone we should be at each others throats. But you should see our family reunions.

The only extreme fundamentalism that goes on is how extremely fundamental we all attack fried chicken,bar b cued ribs and potato salad.

I think we as individuals can tolerate one on one relationships. It's when individuals become groups that test our trust.

[Barkiss]

Well, I'll be damned -- look who's here!

Actually, she didn't disrespect anything. The kids are the ones who named the teddy bear. I guess each of them deserves at least 15 lashes, huh?

Besides, it isn't our rules that were broken -- it was theirs, and we are commenting on them (Yeah, I softened my response -- see what effect you have?)

I didn't comment to get a softened response from you...;) I was hoping for the 15 tongue lashes...

[cherokeered]

Well...there are plenty of Muslim groups who are upset that it got as far as it did....and it wasn't a parent who complained, it was a co-worker.....personally, I think it was ridiculous.....